BadBadBad

Helen,

I've probably been hard on you today and probably in the past as well. I apologize for that.

I hope you don't take it personally. I've been trying to point out today that there is another point of view that you seem to be missing in mine and Darren's thread. That is the christian position of our wives who feel that we are the brunt of what is wrong in our marriages. It is the critical issue from their point of view. In all these posts, and in my personal life, I don't think there is an adequate answer for any of us on this.

I apologize again for my sarcasm towards you.

seebs

Oh! I understand.

Mea maxima culpa.

I had not put things together yet to understand how your circumstances were affecting this.

Anyway, I understand your pessimism, but it seems to me that there is hope, in Darren's case, because there's a *LOT* of other factors that are clearly affecting his wife's opinion. I know that, when she was very depressed and under a lot of stress, my wife used to find the most laughable and improbable things to focus on as "the source of our problems". However, when she got a bit better, she stopped doing that.

It is my hope that Darren's wife, once free from a bit of this stress, will give up her irrational and silly belief that his lack of belief is "the problem".

pescifish

Yes, indeed!

brettc -- I'm very glad you are back. Your situation with your wife was so very frustrating and involved a similar attitude toward what it is she insists your children believe. I personally can't imagine how tough it would be to love someone who needed to control the beliefs of others, no matter what those beliefs are!

HelenM

Thanks for the apology, brettc. I appreciate it

I think you've been wanting me to say that most Christians would agree with your and Darren's wives, that all their problems are caused by your lack of belief.

I can't say that though, because I don't believe it. I believe most Christians would notice that your wives seem to have some emotional problems and an inability to face reality and deal with it.

Maybe I'm wrong. It's certainly true that I'd like to think the best of Christians and maybe that does cause me to have an unrealistically high estimation of the likelihood that they'll be more perceptive and less simplistic than your wives.

Anyway, I wish I knew of a way to improve your and Darren's relationships with your wives. Each of your marriage relationships sound very painful and difficult

take care
Helen

BadBadBad

Absolutely. From my point of view, these other factors are entirely it since there is no god, and hence it shouldn't be a marital problem if Darren doesn't believe in a God that doesn't exist.

However, christianity and belief in God is a basic tenent of what christianity tells us marriage is all about. I know I've heard sermons personally that tell you that's the center piece. Through God, you love your wife. Through God, your wife loves you. It's the center piece. You can disagree with that based upon what you think christianity is, but that's how I interpret what Darren's wife believes. That is what my wife believes.

Helen has brought us what the obligations are for the wife in the face of an atheist husband. Don't divorce, be the role model, stay with him and try to convert him. That is great. However, you guys aren't going all the way. What we need from you, from your christian point of view, is the Bible explanation for how "marriage" is supposed to work without God as the center piece. If you've got it, bring it on because I'm going to throw it on my wife as soon as you post it. I don't think you have it because the Bible says it's the center piece, not just for the marriage but for the whole family. I've sat through sermons saying that's exactly why we have so much divorce today. That's why I don't think this is going away.


Well I think you're wrong here. I'm telling you, I don't think this is going away. She's going to keep on pressing this God button. I've been hitting you guys today, not with your attitudes about christianity, not with Helen's attitude, but with the fundie attitude. You obviously don't share that, and good for you.

This is real though, and I can't speak for Darren's wife, but I can for my own. She defines her life by this stuff. This counselor we've been talking about today has got a tough job on his hand. He's got to convince her how to be a different kind of christian. I haven't been able to convince you or Helen that the Baptists are right in their definition of the root of this problem. You don't agree with me, but I guarantee, Darren's wife agrees with me. What makes you think Darren and this counselor are going to convince her that you are right? Where's the basis, church doctrine or Bible basis, for denying it's the root of the problem?

Vicar Philip

I strongly agree that to my wife, ĜÕÐ is the damn centerpiece of her, and consequently our, life. Inevitably, at the end of every one of our arguments about ĜÕÐ, she pulls her trump card: our kids, our house, our jobs, are all Blessings from ĜÕЙ.

I counter, each and every time, well doesn't it seem rather arbitrary that WE would get four blessings (our kids), and yet there are other folks who would undoubtedly be better parents than us, who can have NO children because one or both of the couple are BARREN??? That's one of the questions I have for which she "doesn't know," but she bets there is some Christian out there somewhere who DOES know. She's banking on this pastor to know.

I have stressed to her time and time again that this (atheism) is not something I arrived at overnight. I have spent countless hours researching, investigating, and reading everything I can get my hands on about religion, ĜÕÐ, and creation/evolution. Dammit, if you have the slightest scientific leanings to your brain at all, atheism just makes too damned much sense to not believe it. It is just painfully obvious that the bible was written by men, for men, trying to explain the stone-age world primitive man lived in. Of course they believed the sky was some sort of "firmament." They couldn't begin to conceive of airplanes.

Another favorite religious problem of mine: why do we not have a single example of a modern-day scientific principle outlined for us in the Holy Bible?? Please don't say "germs" or "washing your hands." Come on. Couldn't all-powerful ĜÕÐ have clued us in on ANYTHING? Hey, I know... how about RADIO? Think of the time that would have saved us!! Surely a being as great as ĜÕÐ could tell us about radio!! Why didn't he? Hmmmm......

My wife, sadly, seems entirely blinded and unwilling to even CONSIDER a world without good ol' ĜÕÐ. Honestly, I am only going to the pastor to make her happy. No other reason. I know, right now, I can live the rest of my life without any kind of religion and be ecstatically happy. I only wish I could share that ultimate joy with my wife.

seebs

It is my hope that, once she's less stressed, she stops being so dogmatic. I know my wife was endlessly dogmatic about things of no possible relevance when she was depressed.

When you're depressed, you feel bad, but there's *no reason at all* for it. However, brains don't *like* that, so they come up with excuses. If the excuse seems to be working, they commit to it.

If your wife is simply dealing with a chemical imbalance in her brain, she is experiencing distress, and then looking for an external thing to blame it on. This does not mean that she has a reason to, or that, once the chemical imbalance is gone, she'll keep doing it.

At least, that's my hope.

seebs

Even if there isn't, it seems clear to me that the disagreement itself could be *some* kind of issue.

That's a bit weird, but I've heard it before. In practice, of course, it's theological guesswork at best. In practice, you love people directly. If God is acting through you when you do so, well, that's nice. You're still the one actually expressing emotions.

Oooh. That's a harder one, but I may be able to help. See, I got married before I was Christian; I believed in God, and asked for His blessings, but I wasn't a Christian, and I was very firmly convinced that marriage was me and my wife, and our relationship... I still don't always understand the "God at the center of everything" line, and frankly, it often seems to me it's a line of bullshit handed out to make it *ANYONE'S* fault but mine (or my wife's) if we aren't getting along.

Okay, I need to stop and think for a bit, but I'll get back to you. Only, the more I think about it, the more I think a lot of the substance might be inappropriate here, because it seems like it'd cross the SL&S boundary. I'll think about this and post it in Misc Discussions.

Yes, it is. And I'm sorry for beating on you, I didn't fully understand that you had a fundie problem.

I will get back to you on that in another thread, but it'll take me a while to get my thoughts in order. However, I do see your point. And I do see this as something very useful, because, no offense meant, it seems to me as though your wife is in desperate need of a bit of help, and Darren's probably is too. I'm less certain about her; frankly, it still sounds to me like depression and stress, and like the church problem is just a proxy. But this is a worthy issue, and I'll get back to you.

pilaar

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Seebs:
Your complaints are beautifully inconsistent. The reason Christianity is an entirely bad thing is that it's so extreme. Anyone who holds mild beliefs is *obviously* not *really* a Christian.
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Sorry to but in this late into this thread, but I am wondering why would a person holding mild beliefs still call oneself a Christian. Christianity is an extreme religion. You either go to heaven or hell. What is not extreme about that? And by rejecting the more extreme and ugly components of Christian belief and at the same time holding the mild beliefs which fit in with current cultural conditions in our society and humanism, arent' you just trying to keep one foot in each camp? Securing a place in heaven in the afterlife and at the same time enjoying the fairer and better conditions of the current ideals in western secular society?

pilaar

seebs

Perhaps because one holds to the fundamental beliefs of Christianity?

IMHO, the ways that most people decide which way to go are not "extreme" ones.

No. I believe that the "ugly" components of Christian belief are human corruptions.

No. Frankly, I act almost exactly the way I did before I converted. Fuck the afterlife; I'm doing what's right *because I think it is right*. I have come to believe that God approves of this, and I feel that I do not need to worry. I frankly don't know what the afterlife is like, nor am I very concerned with it. Right now, I can act as I feel is right, or I can find excuses not to. Christianity has helped me tromp on my tendency to find excuses not to.

I rejected the "fear of hell" argument before I converted, and I reject it now. Acting to avoid punishment is not morality.

I think the problem is you're assuming that people become Christian for the bennies - afterlife, whatever. Some of us convert because we come to believe the fundamental claims themselves to be true.