Copernic

St. Bob,
There are a myriad of threads that discuss this. Let's agree for now to discuss the subject at hand, that is, what about folks who;
1. have not heard about the Gospels
2. do not understand the Gospels
3. have been poorly presented regarding the Gospels.

Are they to spend eternity in the Hell in which you believe? That's over 5 billion people of today's world population, according to your faith, that are to be living in the Devil's basement. How is this justice considering most haven't heard of the Gospels, don't understand them, or simply haven't been convinced.

But moreso, these billions of souls are eternally damned because they weren't fortunate enough to be born in a Christian society or find themselves the target of overzealous missionaries. This is unjust and counter to your supposed "all-everything" deity.

As I write this, I get more and more angry that otherwise pleasant and kind people don't realize, or choose to ignore, the implications of Christian theology.

Regards

Jack the Bodiless

And, likewise, nobody at all deserves eternity in Hell.
I have not chosen that fate. In fact, no atheist CAN actively choose not to be in his presence, just as no aleprechaunist can actively choose to refuse gold from a leprechaun. In order to actively choose, we need to be aware of the fact that a genuine choice is being offered.

If I tell you that stroking the head of my pet dragon will confer good fortune, will you actively choose not to do so? Or do you simply not believe that the option is available?

Furthermore, nobody has chosen such a fate eternally. A just and merciful God would allow anyone to reconsider at any time. Even those who say that they actually want eternal damnation would be able to change their minds.

...If God was just and merciful. The Bible makes clear, however, that God is not just or merciful.

Fortunately, the Biblical God has one great redeeming feature: his nonexistence.

Terracotta

Once I truly realized that the only reason I believed in god and was a Christian was because I had grown up with it in a predominantly Christian society, the last vestiges of my faith fell apart.

And I couldn't be happier because of it.

Copernic

Religious belief is quite geographical, don't you think? As a kid, I loved looking at maps.

I was intrigued by the different colored representations of politics, economics, military, language, religion, etc.

How strange that all colored in yellow are saved. Blue as well, if you include that little patch in Utah. Oh, and yellow minus Catholics if you ask certain Protestants. And greens and black hash marks if you're a liberal Xtian and include Jews and Muslims because "we all worship the same God". Blah, blah, blah.

sorry for the geography rant
J

St. Robert

I, personally, don't believe that anyone who has not heard Jesus' call to salvation will spend eternity separated from God's presence.

Let's suppose someone raped and killed a close friend or family member of yours. Then, the person was caught and brought to trial. He/She was unremorseful, subsequently forgiven, and let go by the judge without punishment. Would justice have been done?

Copernic

Alright, we're getting somewhere.
My first question to you is...
Where then do the unenlightened spend their eternal days?

For the sake avoiding the intrinsic time delay of discussion boarding, I'll assume you think they are allowed in Heaven. (please correct me if I'm wrong)

That being the case, what is the purpose of witnessing and missionary work?

If one can be assured that without hearing Jesus' call, they will go to Heaven, is it not an evil act to try to spread the Gospel?
You are now certain that the witnessing may be a failure because;
a) the witnesser has poor communication skills, b) the witnessee has poor comprehensive skills, or
c) the witness is unconvinced because
i) they already have a religion that ensures equally frightening consequences for not believing, or
ii) they are skeptical and aren't convinced easily.

Sooo, now we purposefully ensure eternal separation from God for billions of people when if we had merely left them alone, they'd be basking in Heaven's light right next to you forever.

I go back to my original speculation that John 3:16 was a way to ensure Heaven doesn't get too crowded.


No, of course not but let me see if I can decipher your metaphore here.

raping/killing = original sin
caught = dying
brought to trial = end of days judgement
unremorseful = heard the gospel but fails to believe
forgiven and set free = gets in to Heaven

I don't buy this analogy because we're talking about good decent people who are sent to hell. You assume they are guilty because of original sin. I, of course reject this but lets assume, however that their guilt has been established.

Otherwise good, decent people are aware of their frailties and imperfections (original sin). I can assure you that they are remorseful. Every culture, all humanity, have notions as to good and bad and there are personal and societal corrections for these behavoirs.

So the point is not that they are unremorseful, its that they are not remorseful in your special way.
So, let me wrap this up by asking...How are we to know how to be properly remorseful?

Regards, J

Jack the Bodiless

This analogy fails on so many levels that it's hard to know where to begin...

Firstly, we don't know what "raped and killed a close friend or family member" is supposed to represent. If it's "original sin", then the person on trial should be a descendant of the rapist/murderer, not the actual person.

If it refers to the belief that we are all imperfect sinners compared to God, then it's quite obvious that some of us are more evil than others, therefore most people in this situation are being charged with a much lesser crime than the worst imaginable (but faces the same puishment). Let's assume that the accused is facing the death penalty for a minor charge of tax evasion.

Furthermore, if this "trial" is judgement after death, and "unremorse" means unbelief, then the analogy fails again because our atheist-on-trial is now a believer. The tax-evader did not believe that the law existed: he was unaware that he was breaking the law. His subsequent remorse, or lack of it, is completely ignored by the judge.

So, here is your analogy reworked to make it more relevant:
My answer is NO.

Copernic

I'm curious to know what St. Robert thinks of this reconstructed analogy.

There are many nuances among Christians as to how exactly and who gets in to Heaven, I'm afraid these analogies don't make it any clearer.
How can we agree on an accurate metaphore when the best and brightest of Christian theology can't even agree on the true pathway to Heaven?

Makes it tough to discuss.

St. Robert

I simply used the story to try and get some assemblance of what justice means to you. What constitutes good? What constitutes good? Are there any ultimate purposes for good and evil?

Back to the original question: Only God knows the answer to this question. It's not for me to say with any confidence. I simply trust that whatever happens, the decision will be good and just.

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: St. Robert ]</p>

gravitybow

Best guess? Don't know for sure? Only God knows? Hmmmm. 2000 years of Christianity and all that can be shown for it is a mixed bag of guesswork. Everyone, grab a white-tipped cane; We're headin' down the straight and narrow!


Every sect is a certificate that God has not plainly revealed his will to man. To each reader the Bible conveys a different meaning.
-- Robert Green Ingersoll, "Some Mistakes of Moses," XII. Saturday