ManM

From page 6 of the massive court ruling thread:

"Justice Fernandez is absolutely correct in holding that the Establishment clause is not intended and should not be used to drive religion out of the public square. As individuals, our elected officials are absolutely free to express their religious viewpoints, to pray before every meeting and vote, to make prayer breakfasts a regular part of their agendas, to speak openly and candidly about their faith, etc, etc. It is only the State that is prohibited from doing so. Why is it so difficult for this clear and simple distinction to pass through the skulls of otherwise highly educated people?" -Bill Snedden

Do teachers (as individuals) have this same right?

Spazmatic

They have the right to pray in public, to express their viewpoints, etc... Not to indoctrinate children with them, though. They have a sacred responsibility of proper education, and this does not include religious instruction. It's not that they can't talk about religion, or pray in the corner (I would expect them too, if they are religious, during, say, a school shooting, cuz such events need divine help, if it exists). But, much like everyone would object to them leading a Pledge involving the words "under Satan", I hold that they should not lead a Pledge involving the words "under God".

Corwin

Not when they're functioning in their capacity as teachers. (When they are, they are a de facto arm of the state.)

On their own time they can do what they like.

On work time, they're on OUR time. Which means they can check their God fantasies at the door and pick them up on the way out.

Writer@Large

One of the first things I was taught when I became a teacher was to keep my politics, my religion, my opinions as far from the classroom as possible. It makes students with opposing viewpoints feel threatened, and it makes me less impartial (in the student's eyes). They need to be free to express and learn for themselves, to be able to explore the topics they want to, and I need to be fair in grading *all* of it.

If only they'd see that about the Pledge.



[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: Writer@Large ]</p>

Bill Snedden

They certainly do, as individuals. That's an important distinction.

I have no problem with a teacher who, in the course of a discussion on philosophy of religion or ethics discusses his or her personal religious views in class, as long as he or she doesn't portray it as a fact to be taught, or as a required knowledge, or encourage or discourage students who hold identical or competing views (either way).

Obviously this distinction is much easier to make in high school or college courses, where the students are themselves able to ascertain the difference. In practice, I imagine that it would be very difficult to express one's personal views in, say, a third grade classroom without having the students misunderstand and believe it to be part of the material being taught. Teachers should be allowed to use discretion in this area, but should be very careful.

I don't think it's at all necessary for a state official to keep silent regarding his or her personal beliefs, teachers included. I do think, however, that teachers, especially those of young children and teens, must be very careful in how they choose to express themselves. The mantle of authority is part of their job, and their charges may be more easily coerced because of that.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

ksagnostic

How about this, though, for a rubber meets the road test? Teacher leads the class in the pledge, but because of her own beliefs, leaves out "under god"? What would happen when Susie and Timmy come home and tell Mommy and Daddy that the teacher doesn't say "under god"? Is the right of teachers not to say "under god" respected if they are expected to lead their class in the pledge?

ManM

Bill,
Would you have a problem with a teacher beginning the day of classes with a public prayer? Not as something state mandated, but as something personal? If so, how is it different from your politician starting things off with a prayer?

Corwin,
I am simply trying to explore Bill's vision. Politicians are state employees as well, and Bill suggests they should have the freedom of religious expression, even when in the public arena. I am just wondering if teachers should have the same right to religious expression.

Also guys, what philosophical indoctrination would you sanction for teaching? What should be the proper action if a student's parents disagree with that philosophy?

Bill

If you want to know about teachers and religion and schools, read the second part of <a href="http://www.ed.gov/Speeches/08-1995/religion.html" target="_blank">this Department of Education web page</a>, which is a pretty good restatement of the law respecting these subjects. Those guidelines basically say that a teacher, while "on the clock" as a state paid employee, must remain scrupulously neutral on matters of religion. The guidelines put it this way: Of course, as others have pointed out, when a teacher is "off the clock" (on his or her own time), they have the same rights as anybody else does with respect to religious activities.

== Bill