Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Scrambles · 10-02-2002, 09:04 PM

RJS, you arbitrarily stop at God, so let someone else arbitrarily stop where they may.

Does God have anything external to him?

If you think nothing then how can you be sure?

If you can't be sure etc etc...

But more to the point, since "meaning", in the sense that we use it when refering to the "meaning" of existence, is a subjective term then claims from the theists side that God is necessary for meaning are totally baseless.

Scrambles

Keith Russell · 10-03-2002, 10:31 AM

Greetings:

First, the idea of something being 'external' to the universe is a non sequitur. 'Universe' means 'all that exists', so anything that exists--anything that 'is'--anywhere, is part of the 'universe'.

To be 'external to the universe' is to be unreal, nonexistent. To 'transcend' the universe, to 'transcend' existence, is not to exist.

If 'God' supposedly 'transcends' reality, then 'God' cannot be 'real'...

Keith.

tronvillain · 10-03-2002, 12:52 PM

Well, if "universe" is defined as "all that exists" that could mean it is not an accurate label for the infinite region of space-time in which we find ourselves, as another infinite region of space-time could exist in addition to ours. That we have invented terms like "multiverse" and "parallel universe" seems to indicate that "universe" is not in fact defined as "all that exists."

GPLindsey · 10-03-2002, 04:07 PM

I think that the universe is the name we give to everything we perceive. What we perceive appears to be about 15 to 18 billion light years across, is expanding, contains lots of stars and galaxies, but is made up mostly of dark matter and dark energy. Anything that is beyond the range of our ability to perceive is outside the universe. Can we know if there is anything outside the universe? Of course not. But does something HAVE to be outside the universe, to give the universe meaning? No, because I don't accept the notion that the universe requires a Big Picture "Meaning." We give meaning to each others' lives and we find meaning in the universe--that's the whole story.

Can anyone address my other point, and describe God without reference to the physical universe? As I said, I think it is rather impossible. To be "All Powerful" requires an object to wield power over. To be "All Knowing" requires something to know. God need the universe to give his existence meaning, more than we need him!

RJS · 10-03-2002, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Can anyone address my other point, and describe God without reference to the physical universe?

I AM

Scrambles · 10-03-2002, 08:44 PM

RJS,

That's funny, I thought we were arguing about whether the existence of God is necessary for life to have "meaning" (significance). You have tried to show that "something more" is necessary for our existence to have a purpose, but not sigificance.

Also, it might be better to actually address someones point instead of telling them that you are addressing it.

Scrambles

GPLindsey · 10-04-2002, 04:41 PM

I guess what RJS is trying to say is that any intelligent being that can make the statement "I AM" is a God.

How does "I AM" describe God? And even if God said "I AM," who'd be listening if there wasn't a universe for him to say it in?

PS: God's next sentence after "I AM" must have been "I'M BORED", which might explain the creation of the universe. An intelligent being in an infinite void must have eventually found his own company intolerable.

galiel · 10-04-2002, 06:56 PM

No, no. The next part is:

BIC

The next part is PEN

Can you finish it?

Quote:

Originally posted by GPLindsey:
<strong>I guess what RJS is trying to say is that any intelligent being that can make the statement "I AM" is a God.

How does "I AM" describe God? And even if God said "I AM," who'd be listening if there wasn't a universe for him to say it in?

PS: God's next sentence after "I AM" must have been "I'M BORED", which might explain the creation of the universe. An intelligent being in an infinite void must have eventually found his own company intolerable.</strong>

Heathen Dawn · 10-05-2002, 08:54 AM

Preacher: what is the purpose of life?

Opponent: I don't know. Tell me.

Preacher: to glorify Him Who created the Universe. To worship Him.

Opponent: that's all there is to it? The purpose of life is to kiss God's arse?

*sigh*. It would seem God is a non-answer not only as to scientific factual questions, but also as to the greater questions of philosophy...

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10-02-2002, 09:04 PM	#31
Scrambles Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Chch, NZ Posts: 234	RJS, you arbitrarily stop at God, so let someone else arbitrarily stop where they may. Does God have anything external to him? If you think nothing then how can you be sure? If you can't be sure etc etc... But more to the point, since "meaning", in the sense that we use it when refering to the "meaning" of existence, is a subjective term then claims from the theists side that God is necessary for meaning are totally baseless. Scrambles

10-03-2002, 10:31 AM	#32
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: First, the idea of something being 'external' to the universe is a non sequitur. 'Universe' means 'all that exists', so anything that exists--anything that 'is'--anywhere, is part of the 'universe'. To be 'external to the universe' is to be unreal, nonexistent. To 'transcend' the universe, to 'transcend' existence, is not to exist. If 'God' supposedly 'transcends' reality, then 'God' cannot be 'real'... Keith.

10-03-2002, 12:52 PM	#33
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Well, if "universe" is defined as "all that exists" that could mean it is not an accurate label for the infinite region of space-time in which we find ourselves, as another infinite region of space-time could exist in addition to ours. That we have invented terms like "multiverse" and "parallel universe" seems to indicate that "universe" is not in fact defined as "all that exists."

10-03-2002, 04:07 PM	#34
GPLindsey Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 221	I think that the universe is the name we give to everything we perceive. What we perceive appears to be about 15 to 18 billion light years across, is expanding, contains lots of stars and galaxies, but is made up mostly of dark matter and dark energy. Anything that is beyond the range of our ability to perceive is outside the universe. Can we know if there is anything outside the universe? Of course not. But does something HAVE to be outside the universe, to give the universe meaning? No, because I don't accept the notion that the universe requires a Big Picture "Meaning." We give meaning to each others' lives and we find meaning in the universe--that's the whole story. Can anyone address my other point, and describe God without reference to the physical universe? As I said, I think it is rather impossible. To be "All Powerful" requires an object to wield power over. To be "All Knowing" requires something to know. God need the universe to give his existence meaning, more than we need him!

10-03-2002, 08:44 PM	#36
Scrambles Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Chch, NZ Posts: 234	RJS, That's funny, I thought we were arguing about whether the existence of God is necessary for life to have "meaning" (significance). You have tried to show that "something more" is necessary for our existence to have a purpose, but not sigificance. Also, it might be better to actually address someones point instead of telling them that you are addressing it. Scrambles

10-04-2002, 04:41 PM	#37
GPLindsey Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 221	I guess what RJS is trying to say is that any intelligent being that can make the statement "I AM" is a God. How does "I AM" describe God? And even if God said "I AM," who'd be listening if there wasn't a universe for him to say it in? PS: God's next sentence after "I AM" must have been "I'M BORED", which might explain the creation of the universe. An intelligent being in an infinite void must have eventually found his own company intolerable.

10-05-2002, 08:54 AM	#39
Heathen Dawn Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,656	Preacher: what is the purpose of life? Opponent: I don't know. Tell me. Preacher: to glorify Him Who created the Universe. To worship Him. Opponent: that's all there is to it? The purpose of life is to kiss God's arse? sigh. It would seem God is a non-answer not only as to scientific factual questions, but also as to the greater questions of philosophy...

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