Freethought & Rationalism Archive

christ-on-a-stick · 09-12-2002, 12:50 PM

RJS -

The Bible is rife with examples of God commanding his "Chosen People" to kill foreigners - massive genocides of men, women and children all - for no other reason than they didn't believe in the same God (worshipped false gods or whatnot). AND THIS WAS OK. AND RIGHT. AND JUST.

You can hand me some bullshit about a New Covenant, blah blah blah, Jesus "fulfilling the Law", God wouldn't tell us to do that NOW, but that claim raises a whole new set of sticky questions about God's supposed "objective morality" - so does he REGRET his genocidal commands now? Were they wrong? Did he repent (to himself) and change his ways? If not, then the fact is that the Bible portrays God as being Okey-Dokey with ordering humans to murder other people for not worshipping him. So what makes you so sure that he wouldn't ask you to? He changes his mind a lot, you know. And he might be royally pissed that you doubted his almighty voice!

RJS · 09-12-2002, 12:55 PM

I guess I'd do it then. Thanks for convincing me of my errors.

K · 09-12-2002, 01:02 PM

RJS:

Would you go to a Christian counselor? And what would you do if that counselor agreed that God did indeed want you to fly a plane into a skyscraper? Remember, I'm not talking about a skyscraper filled with Christian, I'm talking about one filled with non-Christians - one that would clearly be an abomination in the eyes of God.

RJS · 09-12-2002, 01:06 PM

No counselors anymore, christ-on-a-stick convinced me to do it if it happens

Maybe I'll just come back to the forum for advice if it happens.

Until then, I'll just wait.

and

Quote:

Remember, I'm not talking about a skyscraper filled with Christian, I'm talking about one filled with non-Christians - one that would clearly be an abomination in the eyes of God.

by the way, God loves all, not just Christians.

[ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

[ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

K · 09-12-2002, 01:14 PM

I think you mean, "God loves all, except those who were non-Isrealites living before Christ, and anyone who has not been accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven and has instead been banished to eternal torment."

RJS · 09-12-2002, 01:17 PM

No, I meant all.

christ-on-a-stick · 09-12-2002, 01:21 PM

Argh, lovely to see that you'd *appear to* rather brush it all off with a "

", ha-ha, than actually ADDRESS the inconsistencies the character of your Xian God (benevolent or homicidal? hmmmmm...)

It strikes me that it is easy for you to find the hypothetical question silly because you feel certain that you will never hear the voice of God commanding you to do something, and would probably suspect yourself to be mentally ill if you did. Why??? Supposedly God spoke directly and plainly to his followers quite often throughout history. Why not to you? Maybe because you realize on some instinctive level that *it IS crazy* to believe in an invisible sky-god giving humans commands?

Mark_Chid · 09-12-2002, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:
In addition to my prior comment distinguishing the difference between understanding that God owes us nothing due to our sin, and actually killing people (i.e. playing God), I add the following....

1) Your sympathy for this widow on the anniversary of her husband's death is uplifting (sarcasm intended), especially noting that his heroism (along with others)likely saved many more lives.

2) Although I have not read the book, the quotes you reference appear somewhat out of context. She is not preaching to you, she is speaking generally about her beliefs and why she is coping so well with this tragegy. It is as if she is speaking to herself (if I had to guess).

3) Her ability to deal with this tragedy, which included having the child that her deceased husband is the father of, has been an inspiration to the nation (with the exception of you).

Why dont you just go bash her in person instead of here. When President Bush speaks of faceless cowards, I now have someone else to add to the list.

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

Its unlikely that the actions of the passengers on Flight 93 saved anyone - for 2 reasons.

1. The plane was heading for either the Capitol or the Whitehouse, both of which had been evacuated.

2. it would have been intercepted before it reached Washington - it was a long way out at the time and unlike the other 3 planes fighter cover would have been in place.

Beamer & the rest were primarily attempting to save their own lives - a sensible and laudable aim - they certainly did not deliberately sacrifice themselves to save others. They were trying to live, not die.

RJS · 09-12-2002, 01:30 PM

Quote:

It strikes me that it is easy for you to find the hypothetical question silly because you feel certain that you will never hear the voice of God commanding you to do something, and would probably suspect yourself to be mentally ill if you did. Why??? Supposedly God spoke directly and plainly to his followers quite often throughout history. Why not to you? Maybe because you realize on some instinctive level that *it IS crazy* to believe in an invisible sky-god giving humans commands?

I didnt say silly. For whatever reason, you choose not to accept my first honest answer.

I do not expect God to command me to do something that is inconsistent with His teachings. Hijacking a plane and killing non-believers would be inconsistent. (I'll await your vague OT references)

A better question for me would be "Would you sell all of you belongings, give everything away to the poor, and become a missionary, if you heard God telling you to do it?"

HelenM · 09-12-2002, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark_Chid:
Beamer & the rest were primarily attempting to save their own lives - a sensible and laudable aim - they certainly did not deliberately sacrifice themselves to save others. They were trying to live, not die.

I don't believe you have the least bit of evidence to base these assertions on.

However, if you do I would like to see it and I'll happily admit I was wrong and apologize for jumping to conclusions.

Helen

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09-12-2002, 12:50 PM	#41
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	RJS - The Bible is rife with examples of God commanding his "Chosen People" to kill foreigners - massive genocides of men, women and children all - for no other reason than they didn't believe in the same God (worshipped false gods or whatnot). AND THIS WAS OK. AND RIGHT. AND JUST. You can hand me some bullshit about a New Covenant, blah blah blah, Jesus "fulfilling the Law", God wouldn't tell us to do that NOW, but that claim raises a whole new set of sticky questions about God's supposed "objective morality" - so does he REGRET his genocidal commands now? Were they wrong? Did he repent (to himself) and change his ways? If not, then the fact is that the Bible portrays God as being Okey-Dokey with ordering humans to murder other people for not worshipping him. So what makes you so sure that he wouldn't ask you to? He changes his mind a lot, you know. And he might be royally pissed that you doubted his almighty voice!

09-12-2002, 12:55 PM	#42
RJS Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 303	I guess I'd do it then. Thanks for convincing me of my errors.

09-12-2002, 01:02 PM	#43
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	RJS: Would you go to a Christian counselor? And what would you do if that counselor agreed that God did indeed want you to fly a plane into a skyscraper? Remember, I'm not talking about a skyscraper filled with Christian, I'm talking about one filled with non-Christians - one that would clearly be an abomination in the eyes of God.

09-12-2002, 01:14 PM	#45
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	I think you mean, "God loves all, except those who were non-Isrealites living before Christ, and anyone who has not been accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven and has instead been banished to eternal torment."

09-12-2002, 01:17 PM	#46
RJS Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 303	No, I meant all.

09-12-2002, 01:21 PM	#47
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	Argh, lovely to see that you'd appear to rather brush it all off with a " ", ha-ha, than actually ADDRESS the inconsistencies the character of your Xian God (benevolent or homicidal? hmmmmm...) It strikes me that it is easy for you to find the hypothetical question silly because you feel certain that you will never hear the voice of God commanding you to do something, and would probably suspect yourself to be mentally ill if you did. Why??? Supposedly God spoke directly and plainly to his followers quite often throughout history. Why not to you? Maybe because you realize on some instinctive level that it IS crazy to believe in an invisible sky-god giving humans commands?

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