damon_achey

There are two points here. First I don't believe anyone is perfect in every way. That's part of life, to accept others for who they are, the good, and the bad. I've told lies as an adult to prevent someone from hurting, now is that good, bad, or both? Well it all depends on the who, what, and why.

Second is that the church does its best at trying to attach a certain level of guilt to not being perfect. This is wrong in my eyes, but isn't nessesarily racist. They are trying to sell a savior. And the first thing you have to do in order to sell something is to make people believe they need it.

seebs

Hmm. "guilt" is sort of right. When I hurt people, I feel bad. If I were perfect, I wouldn't have this problem.

I don't see what's wrong here.

damon_achey

I don't see a problem with guilt, it is very important for life. The problem is when it's used as a device to sell the savior concept. Tell them they're broken (they've made mistakes so of course they agree), then play off the guilt to get them to buy into the need for a savior. Sorry isn't good enough, just turning your life around won't cut it, you've been bad and only this dude can forgive you.

tdekeyser

Gotta love Helen...

I can answer these, no problem.

"What if someone else doesn't agree you are beautiful?"
That is fine.

"Is their opinion less valid than yours?"
No.

"Would it offend you if they were honest? Would you rather have them lie and say "you're beautiful" even when they believe they are lying??"
It could. I might think the guy I'm talking to is a 'nigger', but I don't need to tell him that. (thankfully, I don't think that about people..)

"Would you like to live in a world where people lie to you rather than offend you?"
Same answer as above.

"Do you lie to other people rather than offend them? Or do you offend them because honesty is more important to you than whether they are offended?"
Absolutely. You learn this skill at 4 years old, it is natural.

"Do you think you are more or less easily offended than other people - if you have an opinion on that?"

No, I am not more easily offended. I am bit irked at the hurt people I see in church. All of their self-esteem drained out of them...

"Do you consider everyone else to be perfect, just as you are?"
Yes. Of course there are imperfections, but my line-of-site is that they all are pefect *now*. Do ya see?

"Does being perfect mean that you have nothing about yourself you are trying to change or improve?"
It means that you are very valuable and that *change* can happen and it can be in an amproving manner, but not always. Improving defense on weapons might get us all killed in the long run and if we did not improve that area, we might be alive. It is better for nature to perfect us through evolution and our help in science, not a fantasy god.

HelenM

Thanks!

I'll skip to where I have questions - I hope that doesn't offend you

What do you learn? I'm confused by your answer here...also, something 'natural' isn't learned is it? Natural is natural...?

So do you think all other non-Christians are as offended as you at Christian terminology, then?

Do you mean: you perceive them to be that way because of what they say? In fact I know lots of Christians who are quite happy - as far as they are concerned they see themselves as valuable because God saw them as valuable enough to send His son to die for them. It doesn't bother them to think of themselves as sinners. Just as it doesn't bother various non-theists on this thread to admit they are not perfect.

Perhaps...I'm not sure...

I didn't really mean, improvement from one generation to the next. I meant you as an individual - you don't have to tell me specifically what they are (obviously ) but I was wondering whether you had any goals regarding things you want to work on, personally.

I have lots but maybe that's because I have a self-esteem problem. Or maybe because I'm a perfectionist. Or both...

take care
Helen

tdekeyser

HelenM

I believe that 4 year olds have learned to lie but I imagine it's mostly because they've figured out that telling the truth can get them punished, if they've done something wrong. I doubt the primary reason is that they are trying not to 'offend' an adult. I don't think 4 year olds are especially cognizant of whether they are 'hurting an adult's feelings' or not. Although that does depend on the 4 year old, somewhat. But I think they basically do what gets the best results from their point of view. Which isn't so different from the rest of us, perhaps...

I said non-Christians

Did you think I meant Christians?

How do you know all this?

No offense but - are you basing this on one person - your fiance? Or on one person's - her - perception? How much time have you spent with Christians? Again, no offense but with such extreme reactions as yours to Christian terminology, were you really able to analyze the effect of it on others? Could you get beyond your own reactions and feelings to see that?

Ok...fair enough....congratulations - but as of now, do you have goals? You told me what you've done already. What about the future?

Actually, the only thing you said which relates to what I mean by self-improvement goals is that you said you're now 'kind'. But - you're only kind to people you want to be kind to, anyway. Are you saying you were less kind before? But you were perfect? You were perfect because you were as kind as you could have been given your circumstances - is that how you look at it? Am I close?

Back to the 'sinner' terminology - see, I care more about substance than words. If someone says "we're all sinners" but they treat me with respect, that's what counts. If someone else said I was perfect but then treated me as if I were dirt compared to them, then I'd much prefer the company of the person who said we're all sinners. That's my perspective.

Helen

tdekeyser

1) Humans develop lying at agr 4 because it was beneficial for our survival, hence perfect. This is known science through repeated tests.

2) Yeah, I thought you said xians. Umm, then I would answer that one as: Some non-xians are just as offended as me. Some overlook it as a tenure of that faith and some do not even know what it says in the bible at all. So...no, not all are as offended as me. I used to not be offended for 30 years. I just became offended when I started reading the bible and studying this faith. I am shocked at it.

3) How do I know how xians feel. Well, YES, I do hang out with them and my fiance still has a few friends left (most were hateful and no longer talk to her). I have gone to church and talked with the members. I listen to the songs, and watch worship shows often. Will all due respect Helen, if Xians were so "filled" with happiness, then why does the "feeling" fade away after leaving church on Sundays and needing renewing the next Sunday?
Xianity is a intoxicating addictive drug that kills the most preciaous thing in a human: self-esteem. I'm sure not all xians are unhappy, but the majority of them are not.

seebs

I wouldn't buy into "beneficial for survival, hence perfect". The gene that makes for sickle-cell anemia is beneficial for survival, too.

Huh. Most of the Christians I know are pretty joyful folks. As to the "needing renewal", joy doesn't seem to, but it can be awfully nice being in a church occasionally.

tdekeyser

Well, I have not met any nice Xians except my fiance. That is the truth. I have been spat at so many times because I am a non-believer. I have had a gun to my head, attempted to charge me with crimes, you name it. I live in the Dallas area and there is a church on every corner. I have 'infiltrated' groups and house gatherings. I study religion a lot and it is clear to me through experiences, books, documentaries, news, friends, and others I have met, that this faith teaches hate and religious racism. That means it starts out saying that everyone is a "sinner" and that you have only ONE way to be 'saved' from this sin. Incidentally, this sin was the result of a "trick" god played on his first creation toys (not very nice).

After being called a "sinner", then the faithful are told that coming to jesus will save them. Once saved, they have the "spectacles" that any human would have learning such things: They are 'over' the rest. They have something 'special' that the "world" doesn't. The "sinners and lost" will then be tortured for the rest of time. By the way, when ever is human torture ethical?

This 'teaches' religious racism. "I" am better off than "you". "come and be separate", "us against them"..The list is just TOO long.


Do you have ANY idea what this teaches a person?

Let's do a test:

Ok theist.., do you want your very own child to be a theist or a atheist? I know you may allow them to be anything they want, but what would you 'prefer'? Why?