Marduk

Cool article in the new Scientific American!


http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?col...A5809EC5880000



looks like there are more of us than we thought.

Seraphim

It doesn't make much sense to me.

Are they saying that there exist other "me"? If so, than what makes Me who is Me?

If the different is only in physical level, then that doesn't means it is "Me" but simply another entity which physical similarities only, then I don't think that that is "Me" but another entity with a same face ... like a twin.

Jesse

It would be a lot more similar than a biological twin or a clone, since this other being would also have exactly the same brain (and thus the same memories, personality, etc.) as you. But we probably don't want to get into metaphysical questions about whether you two share the same "identity", "consciousness", etc...that'd be like the debate about whether a star-trek style transporter would really transport "you" or just kill you and create an identical copy somewhere else, or whether I'm the "same person" as the Jesse that existed 10 years ago who I probably don't share a single atom in common with.

Seraphim

By Jesse

hmmm ... You again? Got permission to talk to non-Atheist members this time because it will be VERY annoying if we spend a lot of time writing and debating only to have someone who don't like it to come and wipe it out.

It would be a lot more similar than a biological twin or a clone, since this other being would also have exactly the same brain (and thus the same memories, personality, etc.) as you. But we probably don't want to get into metaphysical questions about whether you two share the same "identity", "consciousness", etc...that'd be like the debate about whether a star-trek style transporter would really transport "you" or just kill you and create an identical copy somewhere else, or whether I'm the "same person" as the Jesse that existed 10 years ago who I probably don't share a single atom in common with.

How do you consider another "You" to be same as a clone/twin if he doesn't make the same similarities (blood type, DNA etc and NOT the physical similarities alone?)

As for consciousness ... well ... let's not get into that, shall we?

You are still the same person you were 10 years ago. So am I and so is everyone else. Only difference between you now and you before is that you are now more mature (OK ... I'm not sure about that since I don't know you in person, but theorically speaking, you should have learn more things now than you did 10 years ago).

I could agree IF there exist other entities on other worlds with my own looks but from attitudes and personality point of view, I don't think there should be any similarities. I am who I am because I was who I was before.

Hmmm ... I wonder what will happen IF all my "others" (assuming they exist) get together ...

"Some say the Universe will explode, some say the Universe will inplode" - the black guy.
"You missed one" - Jet Li
"Some say you will become a God"
"That's the ONE" - Jet Li.

- From The One.

Jesse

Seraphim:
hmmm ... You again? Got permission to talk to non-Atheist members this time because it will be VERY annoying if we spend a lot of time writing and debating only to have someone who don't like it to come and wipe it out.

Nothing was "wiped out" from our earlier debate Seraphim, the thread was just split in two--our discussion about logic etc. can be found here:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=51061

Jesse:
It would be a lot more similar than a biological twin or a clone, since this other being would also have exactly the same brain (and thus the same memories, personality, etc.) as you. But we probably don't want to get into metaphysical questions about whether you two share the same "identity", "consciousness", etc...that'd be like the debate about whether a star-trek style transporter would really transport "you" or just kill you and create an identical copy somewhere else, or whether I'm the "same person" as the Jesse that existed 10 years ago who I probably don't share a single atom in common with.

Seraphim:
How do you consider another "You" to be same as a clone/twin if he doesn't make the same similarities (blood type, DNA etc and NOT the physical similarities alone?)

Huh? I just said that an exact physical copy of "me" in a parallel universe (or a distant region of space) would not be the same as a clone/twin.

Seraphim:
You are still the same person you were 10 years ago. So am I and so is everyone else.

Maybe, but because our body is constantly replacing atoms with new atoms it gets from the outside world (through eating and breathing), I probably don't share a single atom in common with "me" 10 years ago. So, suppose you have a star-trek style transporter that scans the position of each of my atoms, then instantly vaporizes me, then sends the info to a distant location where an exact copy is made out of new atoms. Would this machine have succeeded in transporting "me" or would it actually be killing me and creating a copy? If you think it's just a "copy" since it's made out of different atoms, then how can you say that I'm the same person I was 10 years ago, since all his atoms were replaced as well?

These are the sort of philosophical questions about identity and consciousness that I was talking about...like I said, I don't really want to get into a big debate about them here. The idea of "other selves" in the article is just beings who are physically identical, have the same memories and personality, the same life history, etc...I don't think the writer of the article was making any claims about whether these doppelgangers would share your identity in a more philosophical sense.

Seraphim

by Jesse

Nothing was "wiped out" from our earlier debate Seraphim, the thread was just split in two--our discussion about logic etc. can be found here:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread....&threadid=51061

I go there when I have some spare time.

Huh? I just said that an exact physical copy of "me" in a parallel universe (or a distant region of space) would not be the same as a clone/twin.

So what will that "You" be? An entity by itself but has a similar features like you? That's how I see it. So this "You" is nothing more than another entity ... so what? No big deal.

Maybe, but because our body is constantly replacing atoms with new atoms it gets from the outside world (through eating and breathing), I probably don't share a single atom in common with "me" 10 years ago. So, suppose you have a star-trek style transporter that scans the position of each of my atoms, then instantly vaporizes me, then sends the info to a distant location where an exact copy is made out of new atoms. Would this machine have succeeded in transporting "me" or would it actually be killing me and creating a copy? If you think it's just a "copy" since it's made out of different atoms, then how can you say that I'm the same person I was 10 years ago, since all his atoms were replaced as well?

THat's where the Soul comes into play ... but then again, I'm going to touch that.

Body changes and grows and the new cells is the same as the old one. The new one will undergo some changes due to our interaction with our environment and this change is then passed onto a new cells when the old one divides. In that context, the contents of the DNA/cells don't change but adds and multiply as it goes. At least that's how I see it.

The old "You" get replace slowly by the new "You" by series of trial and error called Process of Life. In genetic terms, the same DNA you were born with could still remain in you but in more advanced growth stage. My theory only.

These are the sort of philosophical questions about identity and consciousness that I was talking about...like I said, I don't really want to get into a big debate about them here. The idea of "other selves" in the article is just beings who are physically identical, have the same memories and personality, the same life history, etc...I don't think the writer of the article was making any claims about whether these doppelgangers would share your identity in a more philosophical sense.

Even IF he did, I don't think it is possible for another doppelganger to think the same way as I do. My way of thinking is based on my experience and unless the dopplerganger has the same experience as I did in another world (which is very unlikely), I don't see how the other Me could share anything similar.

Answerer

Seraphim, maybe you could go and look at the movie "The One" by Jack Lee(although it is a bit bizarre) to have a better idea of the multiverse theory.

Anyway, I'm also skeptical about the article's predictions. I wonder what math did the scientists use to predict another identical twin?

Seraphim

by Answerer

Seraphim, maybe you could go and look at the movie "The One" by Jack Lee(although it is a bit bizarre) to have a better idea of the multiverse theory.

It is not Jack Lee, bub ... it was Jet Li (Yes, that's his name). I don't remember any theories of Multiverse just simple explainations.

Anyway, I'm also skeptical about the article's predictions. I wonder what math did the scientists use to predict another identical twin?

Maybe the science behind this "phenomena" (can't think of any better words) is like that of splitting of an atom from its nucleus. Allow me to explain.

An atom has photons, electrons and all those stuffs, right? When it absorbs a nuetron (or some charge particle), it splits its own charged particle out and become a new form while the charged particle will travel to another atom and split it up like what happened to the first one. (Someone who have better knowledge and better choice of words can explain whatever I'd mistaken or left out).

Now, in theory ... the particle which made Me split is some type of occurance which could shake my own existence to the point of making another existence while "I" remain.

Example - I almost died several times in the past. That is a good example to use.

I almost died when I was about 7 years old. What IF in a parallel world (lets called it World 1), I DID die? How the world be without Me?

I almost died again in a seizure (don't ask for details) when I was about 10 years old. What IF in another parrallel world (different from World 1, we call this World 2) I had lived from my brush of death when I was 7 but died this time?

I almost died when I was 18 due to a drowning accident. What IF in another parrallel world (World 3) I had lived past 7 years, 10 years but died this time?

What IF I never was born? What IF I was a woman (God Help Me )?

The whole IF is like a charged particle bombarding a nuclear atom and starting a chain reaction which gives birth to other "Me" in parrallel worlds.

Here's a scary thought ... What IF I'm just another "Me" from another world? What IF I exist here because someone else made some difference in his world to a point that it split his World into what I see now?

Sometimes ... I do have this feeling that this is NOT where I belong and this world is not my own ... anyone else has such feelings?

Answerer

I made lots of bloody stupid mistakes today, must be the lack of sleep.



Its not that simple. The multiverse theory got to do with the wavefunction of the particles but my problem with this article is that it refers to a macroscopic object rather than the particle, itself. And my question mean "what kind of math allow us to know the wavefunction of a marcoscopic object ?"

Seraphim

By Answerer

I made lots of bloody stupid mistakes today, must be the lack of sleep.

Then why don't you take a break and take a nap? That's what I do when my brain cannot process properly.

Its not that simple. The multiverse theory got to do with the wavefunction of the particles but my problem with this article is that it refers to a macroscopic object rather than the particle, itself. And my question mean "what kind of math allow us to know the wavefunction of a marcoscopic object ?"

The kind of maths which we are not familiar with for the time being? Maybe ...

What exactly is a Wavefunction? Sounds familiar though ...