Wiploc

Darkfrog asks something like whether effects have causes, but he asked it in stilted English, so I'm going to ask him to translate it into plaintalk.

And while he's not perfectly clear on where he's headed, I'm guessing it's a first cause argument, so that's why this thread is titled this way.

Let us have, it Darkfrog (great name by the way ) what's your argument.

And if you want me to guess what you're saying in your descartes quote, I think quantum mechanics indicates that things don't really have causes.
crc

luvluv

wiploc:

Did you ever read the link I gave you where Craig takes on this notion in defending the cosmological argument?

Quantum mechanics (if I understand correctly) indicates that the causes of things aren't always predictable , not that there are effects which don't have causes.

Wiploc

Darkfrog, I'm feeling particularly inept. This is the post I meant to respond to, to start this thread for. And I started this thread before even looking to discover that there were two more pages of the thread that I hijacked this post from.

But I'm happy to discuss the PoE or the First Cause. Either or both.

My position on the PoE: It proves Jehovah doesn't exist. If he was as advertised, we wouldn't have all this suffering.

My position on the First Cause: It don't prove nothing. It always starts with one set of rules and tries to change the rules in mid proof.

I'd be happy to hear your position.
crc

K

luvluv:

No, that's closer to chaos theory. Complex systems may be deterministic, but their initial conditions must be known to an impossible precision in order to make accurate predictions about their future states.

Quantum mechanics actually implies uncaused events.

ex-xian

Yeah, but that doesn't apply to macroscopic events, does it? We just started quantum in modern physics this week, so I'll hopefully have an answer in a little bit. If you have a reference, I'd like to see it (unless you're a physicist yourself).

HRG

An effect by definition has a cause. But quantum theory tells us that there are events (like decays of unstable particles) which are not effects, since they happen without cause.

If a cause does not allow us to predict the effect in principle, then it isn't its cause.

Regards,
HRG.

Jayhawker Soule

Does that not disenfranchise the butterfly?

Jobar

Xianseeker, and any others interested, might try a web search for Bell's Theorem. One of the consequences of BT is that 'hidden variables' are disallowed in quantum physics- that is, there *cannot* be some hidden cause we just don't know about yet.

the_cave

I think this implication is correct (though this is different from saying it's been proven to be true). And xianseeker, you're right that so far, quantum effects don't appear to manifest themselves at a macroscopic level (that is to say, we have not yet figured out how they could. Bose-Einstein condensates notwithstanding--you might get to those eventually.) Though again, this doesn't _necessarily_ mean there aren't any uncaused events at the macroscopic level.

Jobar is probably familiar with cosmological theories, however, that suggest the universe itself began as a quantum event--and therefore, may be termed uncaused.

However, the quantum laws themselves seem to need at least a logical cause, I would say. The best that physicists have been able to come up with so far is a) those are the boundary conditions; shut up and accept them, or b) there are an infinite number of universes (none of which we can observe but our own) each with its own set of laws (but then I would ask: how come there are laws, period? what _are_ physical laws?_.) Personally, I find neither answer satisfactory.

Biff the unclean

Personally I've never had a problem with the thought that there was a "first cause" that started the chain reaction of every effect.
What I've never understood are the claims that this cause of all nature isn't natural in itself. Why wouldn't it be? And how do we make such a huge leap from a first cause to a God? Other than an old folk tale saying it was a God (but then these same stories say just about everything that happens is the doing of one God or another) why is this ridiculously anthropomorphic notion even being entertained?