Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vorkosigan · 08-18-2002, 09:12 PM

You can make that claim only if you are ignorant of history. In what has been called the dangerous and violent faith of Christianity we have had several communist sects (the Shakers for example), and never did they reach the level of dictatorial violence reached in Atheistic and Atheist controlled countries. Oh, that is unless you are claiming that since mass murder by the state was moral in Atheist controlled countries, they weren�t actually doing anything immoral.

The largest mass murders took place in countries controlled by Communists and Facists. These murders took place in the name of Communism, an authority belief system fundamentally identical to Christianity, Islam, and other authority religions, in which authority lies in the hands of a select few who received it ex cathedra from gods or Marx or whoever. The reason Christianity has not equaled the Communist score is not the superiority of Christianity, but its growing impotence in the modern technological age. The spirit is willing, but the organization no longer has temporal power. Judging by Christian support of Facism the world over, for example, Methodists for Chiang Kai-shek, Catholics for Hitler (and Lutherans), Mussolini, Tiso and Franco, and so on, it is clear that mass killing is hardly anathema to Christianity, although individual Christians of course remain moral in spite of their religion.

In any case, one need only look at the close correlation between social backwardness and religiosity exhibited around the world. The most free and progressive parts of the US are the least Christian; the Christian South and Rocky Mountain states have, in the main, the highest rates of suicide, out of wedlock births, abortions, violence, crime, and so forth. Atheists, as is well known, are the least likely among major belief stances to wind up in prison or divorce, evangelicals, by contrast, have the highest divorce rates. One need only compare Iran and the Netherlands to see the full force of this point.

The US is not "christian controlled" but is a secular state with a majority Christian population. There remain some distressing restrictions, such as the blue laws, restrictions on rights of gays, and anti-nonChristian laws enshrined in many states, but in the main the US is secular. We do not yet suffer from religious violence, although the religious terrorism against doctors, and harassment and violence directed at outspoken non-Christians, augurs ill for the future. What scares us about legalistic Christians is their willingness to resort to violence when other means fail, their indifference to democratic norms, and their contempt for people with beliefs different than theirs. In this they are exactly like Communists, Facists, and all others who rely on some authority outside their own mind.

Vorkosigan

mfaber · 08-18-2002, 11:16 PM

Vorkosigan, Great post!!!

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Quote:

Originally posted by FarSeeker:


Let's see, what was it that was said before?
Ah, yes...
"Just declare victory and go home."

Strange thing about Christians, especially those from America, we don't know when to quit. Thank God, or you might be speaking Japanese, German or Russian right now.

[ July 28, 2002: Message edited by: FarSeeker ]

What smug xtain hubris!! It would seem that you probably is in lock-step with George Bush who declared that atheists weren't "real Americans or patriots---><a href="http://www.skeptictank.org/gbush.htm" target="_blank"> The Christian Bigotry of George Bush</a> ) Can your prove that atheists refused to defend America (during WW II, Korea, communism etc). I don't think so.

[ August 19, 2002: Message edited by: mfaber ]

Jack the Bodiless · 08-19-2002, 01:50 AM

FarSeeker:

Abortion is not relevant to this debate. Most CHRISTIANS support a woman's right to abortion. And nothing in Christianity opposes abortion.

...Unless you attempt to invoke "Thou Shalt Not Kill" or some such. Two problems with that approach. Firstly, it's a mistranslation of "Thou Shalt Not Murder", a prohibition on unlawful killing: it says nothing about killings deemed lawful. And, secondly, it applies only to people: it says nothing to resolve the debate about what constitutes a "person". The majority of atheists and Christians alike do not consider a brainless first-trimester fetus to be a "person". Debate about when "personhood" occurs is the key issue, and the Bible does not say. There are verses about God seeing the future faithful "in the womb" (stage of development not specified), but also "from the beginning of time" (the unconcieved are people too?).

Your argument here is "I think abortion is really nasty, so I'll use it as a stick to beat atheism with". I happen to think that a cannibalistic serial killer is pretty nasty, so maybe I should beat Christianity with it? FarSeeker, I have NEVER seen you condemn Jeffery Dahlmer on these forums, therefore you approve of the actions of your fellow Christian. I could go on about the ritual cannibalism of Holy Communion... but is there any point?

Quote:

So Moses said, "This is what the LORD says: ‘About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well.

Nope, nothing there directed at "all the little ones." How could you make such a mistake? Firstborn refers to the first born in a family, not necessarily to little children.

Such head-in-the-sand denial! This was a TARGETED attack: not a nuke that hits everyone in the area. This TARGETED attack would have killed many adults, but also BABIES and YOUNG CHILDREN. Babies and young children TARGETED because they were the firstborn children of Egyptians.

And my reference to "all the little ones" came from another of the many, many atrocities in the Bible:

Quote:

Numbers 31:14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

There is a LOT of this vile stuff in the Old Testament. And note that, in this example, Moses is angry because the Israelites were not sufficiently bloodthirsty. God (via Moses) is urging them to kill innocents.

I suggest you read ALL of <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty.html" target="_blank">this summary</a>. Then compare it with the paragraphs you've selected from Humanist documents. The Humanists have expressed a desire to see religion die out naturally as people "voluntarily and intelligently co-operate for the common good." The Judeo-Christians express insane, rabid hatred of their enemies: a desire to kill their children, carry off their virgins, and generally see their enemies slaughtered in all sorts of gruesome ways (flood, fire, disease, famine, ritual human sacrifice, etc etc etc). The Christians added an additional refinement: eternal torture in the Lake of Fire!

Quote:

FarSeeker: So, that piece of paper says that Soviet citizens had religious freedom. I’m sure we all know that that isn’t true, so in what direction did this change go? From what was said, to what was meant. Atheists have NO love of other religions. Universally, when they take power, they suppress other religions.

And, universally, when THEISTS take power, they suppress other religions.

You are using a double standard: what does "take power" mean? In a mature democracy, neither theists nor atheists suppress rival beliefs when they "take power" (win an election). You have chosen to consider only totalitarian regimes where people who happen to be atheists wield ABSOLUTE power. Of course these people suppress rival ideologies: they coudn't have achieved absolute power WITHOUT suppressing all opposition!

If fundamentalist Christians "take power", I will be stoned to death. Fortunately, the Theonomists aren't likely to be taking power anytime soon.

Quote:

I am not implying that no Atheist is democratic. I am implying that no Atheist is Christianity friendly. They may be comradely and put up with us, but I know of no Atheist would raise a finger to help a Christian in a Soviet Gulag, or Chinese prison, or even stop the PRC from destroying a Christian’s house (no one’s going to stand in front of that tank Rick).

Then you don't know many atheists. This is just another form of the "atheists can't be patriots, no atheists in foxholes" slander.

Quote:

Let us say the "Shining Path movement" of South America overthrows a country there. They then use the resources to attack the next. Slowly they advance north. Panama first, and eventually Mexico sends representatives to the U.S. to beg for aid and military intervention to stop these Atheists. From your stand on the Crusades, I can see that you would not raise a finger to stop the Shining Path Atheists until they were pointing a gun at your head. The Pope did not share your military disregard.

Again you lie to support your position. I could just as easily assert that YOU will not raise a finger to stop Christian fundies until they start stoning YOUR family.

Quote:

I’m not an "aLeprechaunist, aFlatEartherist, or aElvisLives[ist]." According to my dictionaries those words don’t even exist. Neither do I fail to grasp your dull point; I simply reject it. You see, I call myself what I am, not what I am not. In that way I am a positive person (as opposed to negative). If you do not have the means to put the world to rights, then stop screwing it up and get out of the way so that some of us capable, optimistic people can.

And yet you INSIST on referring to all atheists by what they are not: believers in God. You REFUSE to refer to individual atheists as Communists, democrats etc.

What you ARE is a believer in the Bible. A book which includes SOME good teachings, but also (in the Old Testament) specifically endorses multiple atrocities.

Quote:

Which explains why Atheists want to void the 1st Amendment, which’s the only way you can make the world safe.

Are you from a parallel Universe? In modern America, atheists are DEFENDING the First Amendment against Christians who want to tear it down! It's a never-ending battle against creationists wanting to teach their religion in school biology classes, and Christians wanting to insert "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance and then use "this is one nation under God" as an excuse to demand that atheists should emigrate.

Vorkosigan · 08-19-2002, 04:08 AM

They may be comradely and put up with us, but I know of no Atheist would raise a finger to help a Christian in a Soviet Gulag, or Chinese prison, or even stop the PRC from destroying a Christian’s house (no one’s going to stand in front of that tank Rick).

Just for the record, this strong atheist spent two years in the Taiwan independence movement struggling to get Taiwanese independence activists out of the KMT's jails, both Christians and non-Christians. By contrast, both the Catholic Church and the Methodist Church have supported the KMT regime, and today Catholic spokesman continue to argue for the Nationalists and against democracy here in Taiwan.

Rants like this will lead to these threads being moved to RRP, where posters will be considerably less restrained than here in EoG. Please calm down and produce more reasoned posts.

Vorkosigan

David M. Payne · 08-24-2002, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FarSeeker:


�But it's too bad I can't seem to get you down off that high horse your on. That corner I was backing you into before you quit would have made things interesting.
[ August 18, 2002: Message edited by: FarSeeker ]

(I tried to get your whole quote in here, but the quote button didn�t pick it all up. This will do though.)

FS, I haven�t quit this thread, you haven�t said anything that has been remotely able to counter the point of this thread, let alone back me or anyone else here into a corner. You confuse the ability to post repetitive, long threads full of religious fever with little if any rational thought, as an answer worthy of a serious reply, and they are definitely not worthy of a serious reply at this point. You have nothing rational or logical to say, but you just keep plugging away. You have stamina, but not logic or rational thought on your side, that�s all. If you actually come up with something interesting, then I will look at it and respond, but if all you can do is post the same repetitive stuff, well spare me the drivel. Here is your problem in a nutshell:

If your God existed, he would be the most efficient maker of genocide this world had ever seen, putting Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, among others to shame. As a being that is omnipotent, he could do anything he wanted to get the behavior he wanted out of humanity, and in the case of the great flood, he chose genocide over ALL THE OTHER OPTIONS he had, and of course he had ALL OPTIONS open to him, if he was real that is. But of course he is a myth, a myth that is proving to be the model for the behavior of more and more homicidal fundie fanatics. 9/11 and the like can be laid right on the doorstep of this myth, which propagates more and more fundie wackos out to destroy humanity for the corruption they think they see in us. And the time will come when they have the means to destroy us all, in the name of this or that religious purity. Does that remind you of anyone FS?

When we pointed out this in a logical manor you get huffy and try to prove your point with biblical nonsense, or say man has done evil too, which doesn�t work here. The big evil that man has done, has been done in the name of the gods, be they your God, or the gods of communism or fascism, Marx and Hitler etc. Different gods, same behavior, and you don�t get it, too bad. You may excuse this kind of model for supposedly correct behavior, but I do not, as do most of the members of this forum. I�ll give you this, you are immune to logic, rational argument and even humor in your quest to prove that your myth is real and a nice guy (God) to boot. Sorry, he is a myth, and an ugly, scary one to boot.

One last point, all the good that has come out of religion, has come from the minds of men, not some myth. So the good morality we get from these religious works is our own, and always has been. And the good we do from the teachings of these works comes out of our own minds, as it always has. No God needed FS, now or in the future.

So until the next time,

David

[ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: David Payne ]

ManM · 08-26-2002, 10:50 AM

Quote:

One last point, all the good that has come out of religion, has come from the minds of men, not some myth. So the good morality we get from these religious works is our own, and always has been. And the good we do from the teachings of these works comes out of our own minds, as it always has. No God needed FS, now or in the future.

All the bad that has come out of religion, has come from the minds of men, not some myth.

David M. Payne · 08-27-2002, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManM:


All the bad that has come out of religion, has come from the minds of men, not some myth.

Exactly. We are the ying and yang, the good and bad, and as soon as we realize that and get past the fairy tales that control so many, perhaps then we can move on to explore our true potential as a species. It is not without risk, that�s for sure, for we are a contentious lot and our future survival is in our own hands. (Baring the big meteor strike that is, or the sun going super nova, the Mensa Flu etc.)

FarSeeker · 08-29-2002, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan:
They may be comradely and put up with us, but I know of no Atheist would raise a finger to help a Christian in a Soviet Gulag, or Chinese prison, or even stop the PRC from destroying a Christian’s house (no one’s going to stand in front of that tank Rick).

Just for the record, this strong atheist spent two years in the Taiwan independence movement struggling to get Taiwanese independence activists out of the KMT's jails, both Christians and non-Christians. By contrast, both the Catholic Church and the Methodist Church have supported the KMT regime, and today Catholic spokesman continue to argue for the Nationalists and against democracy here in Taiwan.

Rants like this will lead to these threads being moved to RRP, where posters will be considerably less restrained than here in EoG. Please calm down and produce more reasoned posts.

Vorkosigan

KMT?

hal9000 · 08-31-2002, 08:59 AM

For a guy with no arms and legs FarSeeker sure gets around. Now if he only had something rational to say.

Vorkosigan · 08-31-2002, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FarSeeker:


KMT?

Kuomintang, Chinese Nationalist Party, and authoritarian ruler of Taiwan until recently.

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08-18-2002, 09:12 PM	#171
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	You can make that claim only if you are ignorant of history. In what has been called the dangerous and violent faith of Christianity we have had several communist sects (the Shakers for example), and never did they reach the level of dictatorial violence reached in Atheistic and Atheist controlled countries. Oh, that is unless you are claiming that since mass murder by the state was moral in Atheist controlled countries, they weren�t actually doing anything immoral. The largest mass murders took place in countries controlled by Communists and Facists. These murders took place in the name of Communism, an authority belief system fundamentally identical to Christianity, Islam, and other authority religions, in which authority lies in the hands of a select few who received it ex cathedra from gods or Marx or whoever. The reason Christianity has not equaled the Communist score is not the superiority of Christianity, but its growing impotence in the modern technological age. The spirit is willing, but the organization no longer has temporal power. Judging by Christian support of Facism the world over, for example, Methodists for Chiang Kai-shek, Catholics for Hitler (and Lutherans), Mussolini, Tiso and Franco, and so on, it is clear that mass killing is hardly anathema to Christianity, although individual Christians of course remain moral in spite of their religion. In any case, one need only look at the close correlation between social backwardness and religiosity exhibited around the world. The most free and progressive parts of the US are the least Christian; the Christian South and Rocky Mountain states have, in the main, the highest rates of suicide, out of wedlock births, abortions, violence, crime, and so forth. Atheists, as is well known, are the least likely among major belief stances to wind up in prison or divorce, evangelicals, by contrast, have the highest divorce rates. One need only compare Iran and the Netherlands to see the full force of this point. The US is not "christian controlled" but is a secular state with a majority Christian population. There remain some distressing restrictions, such as the blue laws, restrictions on rights of gays, and anti-nonChristian laws enshrined in many states, but in the main the US is secular. We do not yet suffer from religious violence, although the religious terrorism against doctors, and harassment and violence directed at outspoken non-Christians, augurs ill for the future. What scares us about legalistic Christians is their willingness to resort to violence when other means fail, their indifference to democratic norms, and their contempt for people with beliefs different than theirs. In this they are exactly like Communists, Facists, and all others who rely on some authority outside their own mind. Vorkosigan

08-19-2002, 04:08 AM	#174
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	They may be comradely and put up with us, but I know of no Atheist would raise a finger to help a Christian in a Soviet Gulag, or Chinese prison, or even stop the PRC from destroying a Christian’s house (no one’s going to stand in front of that tank Rick). Just for the record, this strong atheist spent two years in the Taiwan independence movement struggling to get Taiwanese independence activists out of the KMT's jails, both Christians and non-Christians. By contrast, both the Catholic Church and the Methodist Church have supported the KMT regime, and today Catholic spokesman continue to argue for the Nationalists and against democracy here in Taiwan. Rants like this will lead to these threads being moved to RRP, where posters will be considerably less restrained than here in EoG. Please calm down and produce more reasoned posts. Vorkosigan

08-31-2002, 08:59 AM	#179
hal9000 Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: just over your shoulder Posts: 146	For a guy with no arms and legs FarSeeker sure gets around. Now if he only had something rational to say.

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