Amos

My compliments Ronin in that you are a good reader because that is at least close to what I wrote. I should correct you now that we sing Ave Maria's after we tied our present state of mind into the land of our birth. Mary is very enigmatic and is never lured out of the tree of life. In other words, we must go and meet her there (in the TOL) and that is how we tie our present world into the land of our birth (that is how she is the Ark of the Covenant). Only then can we sing the the song of our heart.

Naked Mage, please notice the above correction in Ronin's assessment of my perspective.

Sabine Grant

Ok fine Ronin... as you wish again to pick a fight with me by asserting that I do not respect Native Americans, I will let you seethe in your thoughts regardless of my reassuring you that your ancestry is in no way an issue with me.

You are communicating with a multi cultural individual who was raised to naviguate comfortably in any culture. Save your comments for someone who does not have the advantage of multi culturalism as a background. You will find that most Europeans who have been raised overseas and are quadri lingual do not like to be considered as bigots when it comes to other races and cultures. We acquired multiple languages to be able to fit in various cultures... with those languages we also acquired knowledge in foreign literature and history. We also happen to have lived part of that history. More importantly we have developed a sense of enjoying and appreciating other cultures by relating to the people belonging to those cultures. Most Europeans with a similar background as mine are open minded.. Just a reminder of whom you are addressing your assumptions to.

Save the term bigot for a person whose thinking has been narrowed due to the absence of interaction with foreign cultures.

You are a lovely teaser Ronin....but your baits are becoming tasteless.

AMOS : Can you answer my questions in regard with the treatment of Native Americans? I think some degree of clarification is needed.

livius drusus

Sabine -

Ronin's point, which was perfectly clear to me at least, is that by writing off Amos' bigotry as part and parcel of his boyish high spirits, you gloss over its offensiveness. Ronin specifically did not call you a bigot, but instead demanded that you put your multicultural money where your mouth is and stop treating Amos' excrescences as part of his charm.

Your belated and lukewarm request that Amos clarify his statements about "tribal American" and "figthing wars with sticks and stones in tribal Europe" rings particularly hollow since your original reaction amounted to nothing more than amused banter about French philosophers and the symbolism of Gavroche. Your flippant ice cream quips following Amos' nauseating "you must learn to sing the Ave Maria so you can bless the land of your birth now that is now regained in a land of your own" (sic) comment, are but further examples of just how little consideration you afforded Ronin's feelings about his heritage.

Meanwhile, Mage's one throwaway comment about Amos' questionable mental health engenders a stern reprimand because, as you put it, you "do not settle for those comments with a smile." You are the one who teased, completely misjudging the offensiveness of Amos' incoherent babbling. I would therefore suggest that if you don't like the taste of this Rocky Road, you have only yourself to thank.

The Naked Mage

How is Ronin, or anyone else on here, "baiting" you, Sabine?

Thor Q. Mada

Ronin,

Couldn't agree more, but unfortunately it will not happen in my life time. Look at all these idiots in Eastern Europe.
Half of them have turned maffia, and the other half has turned religious. What is the difference anyway.
An by the way, I firmly belief that the catholic church was at the roots of the destruction of the Roman civilization, thereby leading to the dark ages.
This has caused a 500 years delay in the development of science and technology.
Here below an URL which I have posted before. I do know that because it is on the web, it is not automatically the truth, but further bibliography exists.
http://essenes.crosswinds.net/m23.htm .

Finally, I would like to ask all of you:
How come we are discussing trivial items such as religion, while we all are being wisked around on a planet which is clearly in deep trouble because of gross over population (if you don't believe me, come and have a look here) and pollution. (which is the same).
Again here religion is playing is dirty little role, by resisting birth control.
Amos, shall we have a walk in Manila so I can show you what the catholic church has done and is doing there. That great institution??
Or do you prefer Rio??

Sabine Grant

Have you considered adding water to a well rather than adding fuel to a fire ?

Remember the quote from Camus....

livius drusus

I responded to your persistent refusal to see how offensive your chipper defense of Amos could be to Ronin or anyone else of Native American heritage. I was neither rude nor provocative. My post was certainly no more inflammatory than your reply to The Naked Mage re schizophrenia.

Perhaps you would prefer that I sit silently, swallowing the insult, and let Ronin bear the brunt of your condescending lecture on international living, but I have done that enough. You could smother the fire instantly with just the smallest sample of the multicultural sensibility you claim as a personal virtue. Instead, you ignore your own callousness and bemoan my lack of warm fuzzies.

Matthew 7: 3-5

Sabine Grant

To the few participants who jumped into this thread recently : I have neither any reason nor motivation to disrespect the ancestry of anyone. Nor do I have any desire to join any " ganging " mentality against one individual or the other.

Again I stand in the minority who refuses to demean the character of Amos or anyone because their opinions are different from others.

I have made it very clear in other threads that I will not support insults which affect the character of any individual.

That it bothers some of you that I am resistant to accuse Amos of being a bigot before he can clarify his thoughts, frankly is your problem.

In any case what have you accomplished here by stoning this person for his ideas? is that the way to reach his mind and try to modify his position? certainly not.

Do you want to repell people away from what you evaluate to be the correct and right way to think by insulting them or by offering a rational and even handed approach? You can use your methods but I will not abide to yours. I will entrust what I consider to be important : to keep the dialogue open and see if Amos can realize the implication of his statements.

If Amos indeed meant to express derogative comments about Native Americans and Europeans, I have to figure out how he came to that type of thinking and see how I can influence his thoughts towards non prejudicial thinking. That cannot be accomplisehd by insults. It may bring some of you some type of relief but it accomplishes nothing.

And yes... calling anyone a mentaly ill person for his ideas accomplishes nothing. It certainly does not engender any type of healing from the so called mental illness.

I disagree with the method used here. It has no long term benefits. It is only about venting negativity rather than truly challenging in a constructive way someone else's thinking.

So I will not join your band wagon....

Again Vive La Difference.

The Naked Mage

TRANSLATION (spoken in robot-like monotone): "I am far more resistant to the wiles of reason than you are and will continue to hold that my hypersensitive reactions to things said by others are their fault rather than my own long after they have given up and gone to bed. Your maneuvers have a 0% probability of success."


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Sabine Grant

I think Ronin does not bear any brunt from me...do not present him in a way that he appears to need to be rescued. If Ronin has any direct issue with me, he can discuss them with me on PM as we have before. The man is a big boy with a big mind.......