Mageth

Whereas they chose to accept/believe what they were taught you chose not to believe it.

Either one believes the stories one's told or one doesn't. I don't see what choice has to do with it. I didn't choose not to believe in god, I simply came to the point in my life where the fairy tales were no longer believable. Knowing what I now know and thinking like I do I couldn't any more choose to believe in god than I could choose to believe John Edward is really talking to dead people.

diana

agapeo,

I see you've defined "belief" so that it is non-falsifiable. That is, given the choice between "people believe/don't believe" and "people believe something is true/believe something is not true," you selected the latter, thereby ensuring that we can all be pinned with belief, even when we don't believe.

If used in this way, the term "belief" is as worthless as "agnostic" in it's original meaning (a person who doesn't know if God exists, which literally describes every human being who's ever lived). Terms that do not distinguish between one group and another are useless as identifiers.

Speaking only for myself, I chose to believe that the faith I was taught from birth onward was true--but was unable to convince myself. So speaking for myself, I can honestly say that I never chose to not believe. I did, however, admit to myself eventually (around age 33) that I did not believe and it was no use to pretend or continue to feel guilty because I didn't.

Personally, I often wonder if anyone actually does believe, probably because I was never able to do so. The closest I came was repeating the "I believe" lie so much that it became habit and so the desire to believe and belief itself became indistinguishable. I've done this in matters of love, too--trying to convince myself, for years, that I was in love; after a while, my desire to be becomes hopelessly blurred with the actual feeling in my mind. However, in love, as in theism, the desire to believe never actually made it so.

As I lack the ability to believe, I suspect everyone who says they believe is making the same consciousness-blurring error--confusing their desire to believe with belief itself--as I did. I doubt them, most likely, because actual belief is beyond the realm of my personal experience.

In short, I doubt your belief for the same reasons you doubt my lack of belief. Fair, no?

d

The Admiral

Agapeo

<<<<Now, isn't it the case that you believed that what your dear mother taught you and your sisters wasn't true? >>>>

Yes, I believed that what my mother taught me was not true. Did I not make myself clear the first time, or am I missing a hidden meaning here?

The Admiral

schu

"Believing means not wanting to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche

I think Admiral that this love of god guy is trying to imply that yours is just a belief too, like believing in a sky daddy is a belief.

The reality challenged seem to think that you can't REALLY know that 2 and 2 are 4. You must also concede that 2 and 2 could also be 5. In this way they can still believe in their big daddy up in the sky. If you protest that there are testable, knowable things and their big daddy isn't one of those knowable things they tend to get upset.

Why are some believers angered by disbelief? Bertrand Russell offered this explanation:

"There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably, some part of him is aware that they are myths, and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dares not face this thought! Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not rational, he becomes furious when they are disputed."

agapeo

I've seen rather interesting responses and would like to respond to them all individually when and if I have time. So pardon me if I choose to start with schu's insights and work my way backwards.

Hi schu! The name rings a bell, but I don't recall off-hand having any other discussions with you, but I sense in your post that perhaps I have and it wasn't to your liking. Oh well.

Ahh, good ole Nietzsche. Where would we be without him?
But doesn't one still have to believe what is clearly true? Without that belief does not that which is true in his/her mind become a lie?
Puhlese, show some respect. Or at least a little toleration. My screen name is agapeo (which you correctly translated), but if I wanted to be known as this love of god guy that's what my screen name would show. Besides -- if you type agapeo instead you'd save your fingers a little wear and tear.
Well, isn't believing in a sky daddy a belief?
No -- I would say the uneducated wouldn't know it. Or perhaps the mentally handicapped, but definitely not the reality challenged. Why? Because I have yet to meet someone that wasn't challenged with reality. Life is reality in case you haven't noticed and living life is certainly a challenge. If you don't understand what I'm saying I suggest you browse the SL&S forum where you will find plenty of discussions where people's reality has been challenged.
Nonsense. It's not worthy of any further comment.
Some might, no doubt. I don't question that. But tell me this -- What is it you mean by knowable? Define it for me.

I don't know. You'll have to ask the ones who are angered by it.
Ahh, but then we have good ole Russell to explain it to us. Where would we be without him as well? Oh heck, I agree with Russell. Imagine that! Of course I must ask -- Does Russell have absolute proof as to what is and what isn't a myth? Opinions are fine. Everyone has one. You're entitled to yours and I don't find it unreasonable based on what you know. Why is mine unreasonable based on what I know? Remember to define knowledge before you answer that question.

Edited to correct a grammatical error.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: agapeo ]</p>

agapeo

Well Admiral, perhaps it's just a case that I failed to make myself clear.

Afaik all belief is predicated on knowledge. All knowledge is learned. Therefore as a result of being taught either directly (through others) or indirectly (through observation) you formulated what you believe to be true. Some things considered true can later be discovered to be untrue as greater knowledge and/or understanding of what we know is obtained.

Harumi

Well, if I may take a little bit of Plato, according to him, Truth (I'm capitalizing this as a way to differentiate between ultimate truth and the truths of this world) cannot be believed, it can only be Known (I hope I interpreted him correctly). To believe is to have an Opinion, which can constantly change, and is therefore not the Truth. The moment you know the Truth, you supposedly cannot be swayed, as it no longer is a belief, but true knowledge. Am I making any sense?

The problem with believing in the supernatural based off of stories is that we have know which stories are true, and until that time occurs, there really isn't a point to believing in any of them. So I will continue on my search for Truth.

**We're all living in the cave and viewing shadows. Ahhhhhh!!!**

You know, this smilie is really stupid and makes it look like you're not serious in your posts (ie you're just annoying us) so please stop using it.

Marduk

I think the vast majority of Christians go to church on Easter & Christmas and spend 0% of their time thinking about what they believe.

agapeo

Harumi, just for you I will make sure I don't. I wouldn't want to annoy you. (Can I use that one?)
Btw you made a point that I intended to bring up in my response to Diana. Darn!

Sarpedon

Sorry about the delay, but I've been busy. Here is a brief explanation of my rather terse response. From personal experience. I used to teach sunday school. One day as I was teaching, I realized that I was teaching the children something that I had no evidence to support. I realized that the only reason that I believed was that many years before, I had sat in that same room and recieved that same lesson. That thought caused fear to arise in my mind, the kind of terror that sometimes grips children who lie awake at night. I quickly pushed the thought out of my mind, but for many years it kept coming back, bringing with it the terror. It was several years before I had the courage to confront the truth. It is a fact that you can make most children believe anything if you push it on them early enough and insistently enough. So when I say that christians are taught to believe, perhaps I should have said brainwashed. What I was doing to those children was presenting my unsupported belief to them as fact, not telling them what the alternatives might be, or even that there WERE alternatives. And that is the same thing that happened to me. The fear comes from two sources...the fear of death and the fear of punishment. Religion thrives off the former and nourishes the latter.