Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dr.GH · 07-30-2002, 09:46 PM

A young creationist on another board referred me to a web article on hydrothermal vents and the origin of life by Jonathan Sarfati posted <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4170.asp" target="_blank">here on Answers in Genesis.</a>

I found I was compelled to respond, and John Stear was kind enough to post it on the No Answers in Genesis web site.

<a href="http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/sarfati_on_imai_gh.htm" target="_blank">Boiled Creationist With A Side of Hexaglycine</a>

I would greatly appreciate any of your comments.

Many of you are already familiar with the NAiG BB. Others may wish to take a look.

<a href="http://members3.boardhost.com/john666/index.html?995329051" target="_blank">Welcome to the Message Board of No Answers in Genesis</a>

NeilUnreal · 07-31-2002, 07:58 AM

Before I recently became swamped with work (But who's complaining! $

$) I was trying to bring my knowledge of island biogeography back up to date (As a hobby

-- maybe I need a life!). It seems like hydrothermal vents would provide good raw material as fodder for theoretical work in island biogeography and ecology. I don't have easy access to a large library. Does anyone know of any published research online regarding this particular aspect of hydrothermal vent research?

-Neil

Coragyps · 07-31-2002, 08:25 AM

I don't think you can read the article online without a subscription, but Science Volume 295, Number 5558, Issue of 15 Feb 2002, pp. 1253-1257, is a review, sort of, of what you're asking about. Abstract:

Quote:

Deep-sea hydrothermal vents and cold seeps are submarine springs where nutrient-rich fluids emanate from the sea floor. Vent and seep ecosystems occur in a variety of geological settings throughout the global ocean and support food webs based on chemoautotrophic primary production. Most vent and seep invertebrates arrive at suitable habitats as larvae dispersed by deep-ocean currents. The recent evolution of many vent and seep invertebrate species (<100 million years ago) suggests that Cenozoic tectonic history and oceanic circulation patterns have been important in defining contemporary biogeographic patterns.

The authors seemed a little surprised at the high degree of relatedness among some of these vent-community critters in various parts of the world. PM me, Neil, if you can't find a copy of the article.

Back to the OT: Gary, you kicked some butt! The one (obvious) thing that might still deserve mention is that Sarfati complains that polyglycine was the only peptide formed. I think that a very big reason for that is that glycine was the only monomer that was in the friggin' experiment!

Dr.GH · 08-01-2002, 10:39 AM

Yeah, the complaint that there were no other amino acids in the experiment struck me a quite feeble.

The creationists (ID or otherwise) have their shorts in a twist. Maybe I be saved a bunch of time by being banned. I suspect that that is their goal.

<a href="http://www.arn.org/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=000107" target="_blank">http://www.arn.org/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=000107</a>

Albion · 08-01-2002, 12:37 PM

That ARN thread has been given some pretty major surgery . What was going on before the mods cleaned house?

RufusAtticus · 08-01-2002, 12:46 PM

I wonder what rules were violated? Let me guess:

"7. Evidence makes Baby Jesus cry."

theyeti · 08-01-2002, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NeilUnreal:
<strong> It seems like hydrothermal vents would provide good raw material as fodder for theoretical work in island biogeography and ecology. I don't have easy access to a large library. Does anyone know of any published research online regarding this particular aspect of hydrothermal vent research?

-Neil</strong>

For an undergraduate project, I did some phylogenetic work on some deep-sea hydrothermal vent amphipods. One was a new species that apparently made its way several hundred/thousand miles to the next vent system, where it was isolated enough to speciate. Never got it publshed though.

Anyway, now it's known that there are deep-sea "rivers" with fast flowing water that could potentially enable these small crustaceans to travel large distances. At the time of my project, we had no clue how they got that far. (And no, we didn't consider the possiblity that they were created in situ!)

theyeti

rafe gutman · 08-01-2002, 02:25 PM

nice work GH,

i read the whole thing. every piece of work that comes out of AiG is pure crap. however, they pile it on so thick and so deep it's hard to explain why it's crap without having to re-explain all of biology. it's nice to see someone taking the time to expose them. keep it up!

Mageth · 08-01-2002, 03:13 PM

<a href="http://www.asu.edu/clas/csss/csss/News/life.html" target="_blank">Clay Minerals in Deep Sea Volcanic Vents: A Potential Site for the Creation of Organic Molecules</a>

Quote:

Research has shown that expandable smectite incorporates metal ions and small organic molecules in the interlayer that adsorbs water. At the elevated temperatures of seafloor volcanic activity (over 300˚C) the smectite reacts to a more stable configuration by expelling adsorbed water, and incorporating ions that balance the electrical charge of the mineral. The interlayer chemical conditions (acidity and oxidation state) can be very different than the fluids outside of the clay interlayer. The gradual changes in the electrochemistry of the smectite interlayer allow reactions to take place that would otherwise have been unstable. Smectite interlayers in essence behave as a �nano-incubator� for developing bonds between simple organic compounds and stabilizing more complex structures.

Dr.GH · 08-01-2002, 03:39 PM

Thanks for the kind words rafe. The ARN beef was started in a thread that linkd to the AiG "answer" to the recent US&WNR, which is still linked.
<a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0730usnews_response.asp?srcFrom=fpl" target="_blank">More AiG BS</a>

I posted the link to my paper <a href="http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/sarfati_on_imai_gh.htm" target="_blank">re: Sarfati</a>. Creationist wanted a point by point rebuttal of the AiG BS by Batten. Actually the Batten piece is just a laundry list of Creto "articles." Each one would have taken pages and pages to shine light on their falsehoods. I picked on point an whale evolution for a short comment. Jesse, aptamer and some others chimed in, and the cretos were in total defensive mode.

Much whining later by creationist and mb (in particular), MOD 5 chopped the thread and told everyone to start over.

I'm too old for this crap. But, when I come back from vacation next week I'll be all better. Salmon fishing on Monday, Giant's homegame on Wednesday.

I am glad that John was able to get the page up before I left. It has already been fun even if (as I expect) Sarfati ducks and runs (his version of a dignified silence).

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: Dr.GH ]

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: Dr.GH ]</p>

07-30-2002, 09:46 PM	#1
Dr.GH Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Point, Ca, USA Posts: 2,115	Sarfati on Hydrothermal Vents A young creationist on another board referred me to a web article on hydrothermal vents and the origin of life by Jonathan Sarfati posted <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4170.asp" target="_blank">here on Answers in Genesis.</a> I found I was compelled to respond, and John Stear was kind enough to post it on the No Answers in Genesis web site. <a href="http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/sarfati_on_imai_gh.htm" target="_blank">Boiled Creationist With A Side of Hexaglycine</a> I would greatly appreciate any of your comments. Many of you are already familiar with the NAiG BB. Others may wish to take a look. <a href="http://members3.boardhost.com/john666/index.html?995329051" target="_blank">Welcome to the Message Board of No Answers in Genesis</a>

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07-31-2002, 07:58 AM	#2
NeilUnreal Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: USA Posts: 77	Before I recently became swamped with work (But who's complaining! $ $) I was trying to bring my knowledge of island biogeography back up to date (As a hobby -- maybe I need a life!). It seems like hydrothermal vents would provide good raw material as fodder for theoretical work in island biogeography and ecology. I don't have easy access to a large library. Does anyone know of any published research online regarding this particular aspect of hydrothermal vent research? -Neil

08-01-2002, 10:39 AM	#4
Dr.GH Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Point, Ca, USA Posts: 2,115	Yeah, the complaint that there were no other amino acids in the experiment struck me a quite feeble. The creationists (ID or otherwise) have their shorts in a twist. Maybe I be saved a bunch of time by being banned. I suspect that that is their goal. <a href="http://www.arn.org/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=000107" target="_blank">http://www.arn.org/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=000107</a>

08-01-2002, 12:37 PM	#5
Albion Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: US east coast. And www.theroyalforums.com Posts: 2,829	That ARN thread has been given some pretty major surgery . What was going on before the mods cleaned house?

08-01-2002, 12:46 PM	#6
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	I wonder what rules were violated? Let me guess: "7. Evidence makes Baby Jesus cry."

08-01-2002, 02:25 PM	#8
rafe gutman Junior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: La Jolla, CA Posts: 72	nice work GH, i read the whole thing. every piece of work that comes out of AiG is pure crap. however, they pile it on so thick and so deep it's hard to explain why it's crap without having to re-explain all of biology. it's nice to see someone taking the time to expose them. keep it up!

08-01-2002, 03:39 PM	#10
Dr.GH Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Point, Ca, USA Posts: 2,115	Thanks for the kind words rafe. The ARN beef was started in a thread that linkd to the AiG "answer" to the recent US&WNR, which is still linked. <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0730usnews_response.asp?srcFrom=fpl" target="_blank">More AiG BS</a> I posted the link to my paper <a href="http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/sarfati_on_imai_gh.htm" target="_blank">re: Sarfati</a>. Creationist wanted a point by point rebuttal of the AiG BS by Batten. Actually the Batten piece is just a laundry list of Creto "articles." Each one would have taken pages and pages to shine light on their falsehoods. I picked on point an whale evolution for a short comment. Jesse, aptamer and some others chimed in, and the cretos were in total defensive mode. Much whining later by creationist and mb (in particular), MOD 5 chopped the thread and told everyone to start over. I'm too old for this crap. But, when I come back from vacation next week I'll be all better. Salmon fishing on Monday, Giant's homegame on Wednesday. I am glad that John was able to get the page up before I left. It has already been fun even if (as I expect) Sarfati ducks and runs (his version of a dignified silence). [ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: Dr.GH ] [ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: Dr.GH ]</p>

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