GaryP

There was a letter to this newspaper a few days ago. I responded to it (twice) but the paper never printed it.

I was pleased when they DID print a similar letter a couple of days ago.

Now, they have printed this in rebuttal to the reply letter;

snip;

Even Thomas Paine said, "the evil that has resulted from error of the schools in teaching (science without God) has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism." Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter in 1816 entitled "I am a real Christian" that clearly stated he was a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ. As president he sent red-letter portions of the Bible as a primer to teach American Indians Christian morality, and he sent Christian missionaries to the American Indians at government expense. In Benjamin Franklin's plan for public schools he insisted they teach "the necessity for public religion and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." James Madison wrote a letter to the attorney general stating that public officials were not bold enough about their Christian faith and should be "fervent advocates in the cause of Christ." George Washington was an open promoter of Christianity when he charged his soldiers at Valley Forge to add to the distinguished character of a patriot the even more distinguished character of a Christian.

You can read the whole thing here;

http://www.mansfieldnewsjournal.com/...on/583550.html

I just responded to a letter in a different Cetral OH paper today and I am tired of punding on this keyboard.

Can anyone help with either a refutation or Qualification of some of this guys "ideas"? If so, thanks!

dangin

I know about the Jefferson dealio. He did agree to federal dollars to pay for clergy to go to some eastern native american tribes. But these were tribes that had already "accepted" jesus. The purpose was not for conversion, but to get an "anglo" preacher in their to keep them on the path. It was gentrification, not evangelism. Most of these tribes were probably (or soon became) farmers, they engaged in commerce, probably intermarried with whites, and have been absorbed into the collective "white" america for hundreds of years.

It's not like an army of christian preachers were paid for and sent thoughtout the new louisiana territory to spread the gospel to every tribe they came accross. Although it would have been sweet if TJ had sent all the preachers to the Apaches and Comanches. Holy scalps anyone?

You can also counter most of those out of context quotes with these out of context quotes found here.


" ... that not one of the first six Presidents of the United States was an orthodox Christian." - Mortimer Adler

"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another." - Benjamin Franklin

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear." - Thomas Jefferson

"Allegiance to the Creator and Governor of the Milky Way and the Nebulae, and Benevolence to all his Creatures, is my Religion." - John Adams

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded project." - James Madison

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, not by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church." - Thomas Paine

"The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy." - George Washington

Bill Snedden

Jefferson's idea of "Christian" was obviously far different from what modern Christians believe. If the writer of the letter wants schoolchildren to be taught what a "Jeffersonian Christian" might believe, I'm not sure I would object! It would be based on Jesus' moral teachings and completely devoid of any reference to the supernatural.

The Paine quote is accurate, as far as it goes. It's from a 1792 essay entitled "The Study of God." The actual sentence quoted reads, "The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism."

Paine, however, would never have advocated teaching students about god or to mixing science with religion. It was clearly his view that god was revealed through nature. From the same essay:

The Franklin quote is also authentic, coming from his 1749 "Proposals Relating to the Education of Youth in Pennsylvania." One does have to wonder, however, exactly what Franklin meant by such a statement, given his private views and practices regarding religion.

The Madison quote, however, is likely not authentic. Given the content of his Memorial and Remonstrance of 1785 and his strong advocacy of complete church-state separation, it seems unlikely that he would make such a statement in the context in which he is here alleged to have made it. From this paper at the Library of Congress, it is noted that while in college Madison wrote a 1773 letter to a college friend that used almost exactly the same words:

However, Dr. Hutson goes on to say:

This would seem to vitiate the possibility that the quote is authentic.

The George Washington quote I'm not sure about. I can't find it in the online Washington papers at the LOC, but I really don't have time to do a thorough search.

At any rate, if the author is trying to use these examples as proof that the FF would have supported Christian indoctrination in public schools, he is sorely mistaken...

Regards,

Bill Snedden

butswana

Who ever thinks Tom Paine was a christian hasn't read The Age of Reason. He had a real hard-on for his deism. Came off as a bit over zealous. Wasn't to hip to atheists either.

Stephen Maturin

Mr. Maurer claims in his letter to the editor that "Madison wrote a letter to the attorney general stating that public officials were not bold enough about their Christian faith and should be 'fervent advocates in the cause of Christ.'" This looks to be yet more flagrant misrepresentation emanating from that renowned Liar for Jesus(TM), David Barton. As Bill pointed out, the letter in question was written in 1773, three years before the colonies declared independence. T'weren't no attorney general at that time. According to this article, the letter's receipient -- William Bradford, who became the Attorney General much later -- had just turned 18 at the time and was looking for career advice. The "fervent advocates" statement most assuredly did not refer to "public officials." Madison's actual views on church-state separation, which are also described in the article, make accomodationists all queasy.

More to the point, though, all this stuff about the founders and their personal religious beliefs is irrelevant. There's a mile-wide, mile-deep chasm between "So and so said some nice things about Christianity" and "The founders wanted us to spend billions in public money supporting evangelical Christianity," which is where the religious right really wants to go.

GaryP

Thanks all! I just got word that one of my responses to a diffferent letter in another paper is going to be published so I feel better.

I did write a response to the letter referred to in the OP.

Here it is;

Mr. Maurer’s letter of July 3 contains quotes supposedly supporting the thesis that America was founded as a Christian nation.

He quotes Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison and George Washington to support his claim.

Looking at these Founders from a different perspective, I would offer these quotes;

Thomas Paine; “As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of all government to protect all conscientious professors thereof, and I know of no other business which government hath to do therewith.”

Thomas Jefferson, “Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.”

Benjamin Franklin; “When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.”

James Madison, “I have ever regarded the freedom of religious opinions and worship as equally belonging to every sect.”

George Washington, “ I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta (Constitution) of our country.”

Many, or perhaps all, of these Founders would have called themselves Christians. Most historians would call them Deists. That is, they believed in a “Creator” but not a personal God of revelation as most of today’s Christians do.

But all this is moot. The laws of our land are based on the Constitution. The only mention of religion in it is to admonish the Congress from establishing it.

There is no mention of God, Jesus or any of their aliases.

This country is for ALL of its citizens. To claim one group has a special place in it is unjust and, indeed, un-American.

So even if it doesn't get in the paper, I feel better "publishing" it here. Thanks again.

GaryP

Well, my reply to the letter was never published.

I did get this one in a different paper though;




Mr. Jackson's July 2 letter makes a tired point concerning the equation of a belief in a god with patriotism. Additionally, he seems to think that being a liberal is somehow unpatriotic.

Many Americans express either nonbelief in a deity or major criticism of Christianity. And as hated as the term seems to be these days, liberalism has a grand tradition in the United States. So does being non-religious and/or a liberal disqualify one from being a patriot? I would say not.

http://www.newarkadvocate.com/news/s...on/611627.html

By the way, the letter was edited for length. At the end, it sounds as if I am calling all the people quoted "non-religious".

Actually, I had quoted from this CUNY research;
http://www.gc.cuny.edu/studies/studies_index.htm#aris_1

The rhetorical question at the end was supposed to refer to the 14% who did not identify with a religious group.

theophilus

This is an unfortunate and inaccurate statement.
I know of NO Christian leader who endorses spending "billions in public money" supporting evangelical or any other form of Christianity.

Some have endorsed Bush's "Faith-based Iniative," but we true Christian conservatives are working to educate them.

What most Christian leaders object to, however inexpertly, is the use of "billions in public money" to inculcate a culture of atheistic/materialism to rising generations through the government school system.

You should oppose this also.

StrictSeparationist

What, you mean by disallowing official sponsorship of religion? That's "inculcat[ing] a culture of atheistic/materialism" (whatever that means)? It seems that public Christian leaders are constantly objecting to the fact that they are no longer allowed certain special privileges. They seem to be oblivious to the fact that no religious group, be they majority or minority, has the right to use the government as its loudspeaker.

theophilus