Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kosh · 07-03-2002, 07:59 AM

From the CNN report on the mishap in Afghanistan yesterday:

Quote:

Eyewitnesses put the death toll in the Monday strike at between 120 and 130, but the Afghan Foreign Ministry said it believed around 40 people were killed. Twenty-two people remained hospitalized in the southern Afghan city of Kandahar.

U.S. defense officials said at least 20 people died in the attack and more than 60 were wounded. But the U.S. military has not publicly disputed the Afghan government estimate of 40 deaths.

Just something to keep in mind when reading things like Pauls assertion, 20 years after the fact, that Jesus appeared [resurrected] to 500 people...

Tercel · 07-03-2002, 03:49 PM

Yes, there may have been 127 people who saw the risen Lord, or 746 people... and we have no way of knowing precisely!

But this example serves to show why skeptics are unjustified at claiming contradictions in the two parallel passages in the Bible mean it didn't happen or even cause serious doubt of its truth. If a skeptic in 4000AD was to read the varying figures given, they would no doubt conclude that the contradictions showed that the bombing never happened...

Mageth · 07-03-2002, 04:02 PM

There's a bit of a difference between a claim that says "40 people were killed by a bomb" and one that says "40 people were killed by a bomb, but that's OK; they rose from the dead!"

Family Man · 07-03-2002, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tercel:
[QB]Yes, there may have been 127 people who saw the risen Lord, or 746 people... and we have no way of knowing precisely!

Or none! As you said, we have no way of knowing. We can, however, get a pretty reasonable figure of how many were killed in Afghanistan.

Grumpy · 07-03-2002, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tercel:
If a skeptic in 4000AD was to read the varying figures given, they would no doubt conclude that the contradictions showed that the bombing never happened...

The analogy is not so apt, when we are dealing with an allegedly infallible revelation. God ostensibly inspired one Biblical author to say #A, but inspired another to report #B. Either #A or #B could be true, but not both, and since the source can't get it straight, that provides reason to doubt the alleged infallibility.

No one is claiming that the witnesses in Afghanistan, or the Pentagon, are infallible sources.

Tercel · 07-03-2002, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grumpy:
The analogy is not so apt, when we are dealing with an allegedly infallible revelation.

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> Only with the fundies...

Quote:

No one is claiming that the witnesses in Afghanistan, or the Pentagon, are infallible sources.

So if people were claiming the witnesses and the Pentagon were infallible, would that be a good reason to doubt the actuality of the bombing? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Kosh · 07-03-2002, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tercel:
So if people were claiming the witnesses and the Pentagon were infallible, would that be a good reason to doubt the actuality of the bombing?

No. That would leave us only to conclude that that claims of infallibility are false.

Vorkosigan · 07-03-2002, 10:35 PM

Pauls comments are unbelievable because (1) such braggadacio is common among missionaries in all religions; (2) there is no other mention of 500 seeing Jesus all at once; (3) Paul confesses he will do or say anything to spread the word; (4) the figure is round; (5) who counted? How did they know it was 500?

Etc.

The estimates from Afghanistan are clearly preliminary estimates, and everyone provides a range, and qualifies with words like "about." Nobody believes the US numbers for the same reason Paul's should not be believed: a confessed tendency to lie coupled with powerful incentives for lying.

Vorkosigan

rodahi · 07-04-2002, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tercel:
Yes, there may have been 127 people who saw the risen Lord, or 746 people... and we have no way of knowing precisely!

Yes, Tercel, and between 1000 and 10,000 people have seen the risen Elvis. Do you see how ridiculous your statement is?

Vorkosigan · 07-04-2002, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rodahi:


Yes, Tercel, and between 1000 and 10,000 people have seen the risen Elvis. Do you see how ridiculous your statement is?

WHHHHHHAAAAAAATTTTTTTT!

Welcome back, stranger! turtonm speaking in my new guise! Hot damn it's good to see you!

Vorkosigan

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07-03-2002, 03:49 PM	#2
Tercel Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,315	Yes, there may have been 127 people who saw the risen Lord, or 746 people... and we have no way of knowing precisely! But this example serves to show why skeptics are unjustified at claiming contradictions in the two parallel passages in the Bible mean it didn't happen or even cause serious doubt of its truth. If a skeptic in 4000AD was to read the varying figures given, they would no doubt conclude that the contradictions showed that the bombing never happened...

07-03-2002, 04:02 PM	#3
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	There's a bit of a difference between a claim that says "40 people were killed by a bomb" and one that says "40 people were killed by a bomb, but that's OK; they rose from the dead!"

07-03-2002, 10:35 PM	#8
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Pauls comments are unbelievable because (1) such braggadacio is common among missionaries in all religions; (2) there is no other mention of 500 seeing Jesus all at once; (3) Paul confesses he will do or say anything to spread the word; (4) the figure is round; (5) who counted? How did they know it was 500? Etc. The estimates from Afghanistan are clearly preliminary estimates, and everyone provides a range, and qualifies with words like "about." Nobody believes the US numbers for the same reason Paul's should not be believed: a confessed tendency to lie coupled with powerful incentives for lying. Vorkosigan

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