theauditors

I posed this question to one of my Christian peers the other day, and he hasn't been able to provide me with a satisfactory answer (I'm inclined to think that there isn't one).

Premise 1: God is omniscient
It then follows that God knows everything that has and will ever happen.

Therefore, God knows what the fate of all humans on Earth will be.

Premise 2: Life is a test, to see if we accept the message of Jesus
I've heard this line trotted out many times by preachers, varied slightly. Anyway, the gist of it is that the only purpose this life serves is to see whether we want to go to hell or heaven.

My question is this: If God knows where everyone will end up, then what the hell is the point of life? It would seem that the examiner already knows the results, but he sets the test anyway. Why? It might be argued that this life exists in order for us to experience "things", but what exactly is the point when we could be in Heaven the whole time (or hell, for that matter)?

Anyway, I'm eager to hear people's responses to this...and if Amos responds, please word your replies in such a way that I can actually understand them. They tend to be a bit...vague. And difficult to pin down.

Jamie_L

If God is omniscient and omnipotent, then tests make no sense, free-will makes no sense, in short, this world makes no sense unless it is purely for entertainment value to this diety.

In this scenario, God made all objects and all events in all time. The only way for God to allow free-will and tests is to create human beings partially or entirely randomly. While this allows for free-will, it makes the idea of testing ludicrous.

Either way, how can we be held accountable for living lives that were either a) created for us or b) filled with flaws sprinkled out at random?

Jamie

Vibr8gKiwi

When I was a kid being raised in a strict religious household, I asked a similar question to my father. I wondered that if God knew where I was going to end up, what was the point of putting me here and running me through this "test?" He said that God knew where I was going, but that I didn't know. He said this "test" was for me to find out, not for God. At the time that was a good enough answer for a 10-year-old kid.

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: Vibr8gKiwi ]</p>

theauditors

So...according to your father's argument, earth is here for humans to find out whether we're worthy or not of entering heaven.

Since God is omniscient, the only conclusion is that he obviously doesn't have the communication skills to inform us.

Jobar

Ah, but since he is omnipotent, he must have *perfect* communication skills!

Koyaanisqatsi

I've heard that apologetic so many times it literally makes me want to retch (not you, kiwi, just the apologetic).

Why (and how) would it be a test for us? What would it be testing? Whether or not we follow our programming properly?

That is literally identical to saying Bill Gates wrote a program that mimics a random number generator and runs it in order to test whether or not it is actually mimicing a random number generator, but not for his benefit; for the program's benefit.

Asinine.

[ September 05, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

phlebas

Even that doesn't make a lot of sense. What would amuse an omniscient, omnipotent creator diety about this mortal life? It's sort of like been enormously entertained by a play you wrote yourself. (Is "omninarcisstic" a word?)

Blu

I read a book called "Time and Space." I begin to think of "God" as something that has absolutely no characteristics associated with a human being. I believe that if there is a "God" (energy or otherwise) then this "God" would exist outside time and space since humanity (etc) exist inside and are confined to time and space. Other dimensions come to mind...

So let's say God exists outside time and space for the sake of argument. If it has a consciousness then, it would not be like human consciousness. Perhaps to "it" our little human species and earth and our time is an unending loop and "sees" it (it=past, present, future)as a circle, a spiral instead of a straight line that we see ourselves as standing in the middle of since our minds are always in the present.

We experience our lives as taking place in a stream with a beginning, middle and end. This is how our reality, our minds, consciousness, perceptions, brains, cells perhaps.. work. Imagine how life would seem if our minds were not confined to time and space. Now if God does not have any characteristics associated with a human being then hypothetically it doesn't have the same reality if it has a reality at all. (Probably does not have a reality and it probably isn't even an "It")

My persistent belief is that human beings do not have the capacity to know everything there is to know about human existence nor everything about the Universe. You either need to feel comfortable with knowing this or you choose a religion or the opposite of religion (atheism) to rule your thought processes. This in itself seems limiting to me. I believe that discoveries are made with an open mind.

Now in regards to the point of life, that is where spiritual beliefs come into play. You either see life as being pointless or you see it as meaningful. Religion seems to accomplish its purpose by filling this gap. I think that is why many religious people think Atheist are miserable. How is their "gap" filled?

Oh well, just my ideas....