Freethought & Rationalism Archive

BadBadBad · 05-28-2003, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cipher Girl
[B]If he had said anything, I would have countered with "Well obviously impressing everyone with your prayers is more important to you than your grandchild."

You could have told him you went off to the closet for your reward, and you're sure he'll get his:

Matthew 6:5-6 6:5
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

In my family, the Lord's prayer comes up a lot. They just forget to read the whole chapter.

BadBadBad · 05-28-2003, 02:30 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rushianbeing
[B]

Quote:

Originally posted by LLaurieG
(Laurie)
But context matters. There are large areas of the United States where the overwhelming majority of people are more religiously opinionated and bigoted than you can imagine. If it is learned that you are an atheist, you may be socially ostracized, cause (otherwise dear) family members severe anguish, and in the workplace, you might simply and quietly never be promoted again.

Well, well, WELL said, LLaurieG. My husband and I live in one of those areas of the country. My husband runs a restaurant with his father and mother, and he comes home from work frequently frustrated that he feels constrained re. his religious (and political-around here, if you don't wanna kill all them ay-rabs, you're a commie bastard) views, but he knows that if word got out in this tiny Appalachian burg that the restaurant owner's son was an atheist (OR the restaurant owner's daughter-in-law), they would literally go out of business. I wish I were exaggerating, but unfortunately it is absolutely true. We struggle with this fact all the time, because we DO NOT want to just give in to the fundamentalist bullshit and let them win, but at the same time, if the family wants to remain financially stable, we HAVE to be discreet. And my poor husband has to put up with a Christian radio station on all day at work, and his mother running anti-choice fundraisers out of the dining rooms. It's disgusting but true.

This reminds me of all the anti-war stuff going on in the US. Many of the really outspoken folks on anti-war, anti-US tract got surprised by the outcry of public opinion. It's a free country, and you can say what you want. There are consequences to unpopular opinions. You shouldn't have to hide, but keeping your opinions to yourself isn't a bad policy.

I had to work with a really obnoxious fundie once. He was bad enough without religion just from personality alone. The signs of his fundyism were everywhere, and one day he pinned me down on my beliefs. I told him I was "not religious." He then insulted me, told me he would never have any respect for me, and that basically that was it. He'd written me off as a person. Things were much worse after that. I wasn't going to deny my beliefs, but if I could have avoided that whole scenario, I sure would have.

BibleBelted · 05-28-2003, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by brettc

I had to work with a really obnoxious fundie once. He was bad enough without religion just from personality alone. The signs of his fundyism were everywhere, and one day he pinned me down on my beliefs. I told him I was "not religious." He then insulted me, told me he would never have any respect for me, and that basically that was it. He'd written me off as a person. Things were much worse after that. I wasn't going to deny my beliefs, but if I could have avoided that whole scenario, I sure would have.

Family matters are one thing, and public interaction another.

I don't make a scene at family gatherings - all my wife's family are fundy - I'll hold hands or whatever - but in these times, when there is a climate of Christian Fascism growing in America, I consider it my civic duty to politely (initially anyway) but firmly inform anyone spouting off Christian political nonsense that I will not be going along quietly. If they want to have a reasonable discussion, be reasonable; but if they want to shout, they'll be shouted at.

I've been told (by some of my victims) that my approach is more intolerant and bigoted than anything Robertson or Falwell do. That's too bad. My experience has always been that bullies (and that's what these Jesus thugs are) do not respond well to reason and tolerance. They respond to getting punched in the nose.

Figuratively speaking, of course ... at least so far.

RawData · 05-29-2003, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BibleBelted
Family matters are one thing, and public interaction another.

I don't make a scene at family gatherings - all my wife's family are fundy - I'll hold hands or whatever - but in these times, when there is a climate of Christian Fascism growing in America, I consider it my civic duty to politely (initially anyway) but firmly inform anyone spouting off Christian political nonsense that I will not be going along quietly. If they want to have a reasonable discussion, be reasonable; but if they want to shout, they'll be shouted at.

I've been told (by some of my victims) that my approach is more intolerant and bigoted than anything Robertson or Falwell do. That's too bad. My experience has always been that bullies (and that's what these Jesus thugs are) do not respond well to reason and tolerance. They respond to getting punched in the nose.

Figuratively speaking, of course ... at least so far.

I know the type. Met 30 - 40 at the GAMOW in November (some discussion ensued with various atheists/humanists/etc.) Also met some recently at a Seattle event (Northwest Folklife). Same type of obnoxious bullying smegheads. At GAMOW, at least one used a bull-horn to yell LOUDER!

My immediate family (Ma & Pa & Brothers) all know I am Atheist. It took awhile for Ma to deal with it (still doesn't on some levels, keeps bringing up the fact that I was baptised). Nice thing was that my parents were not the church-going type, believed their own way. Much more open to differing views.

I have not let the uncles, aunts, and cousins know. I likely won't unless they ask directly. I try always to say "I am an Atheist" if asked directly. So far I have not been Witnessed at, but hey, this is supposed to be the least religious region in the country (less church-going).

I'd recommend not doing anything blatant, but small protests (silent during dinner prayer for instance) may help give them hints. If you are confronted about it, then say why. They may not want to ask for awhile, and may ask one at a time in private.
Just my opinion, worth possibly as much as the paper it is written on.....

I hope it goes well with you and family.

Raw D

southernhybrid · 05-30-2003, 05:57 AM

Being an atheist means having no dogma, rules or mandatory rituals. While it may be important to some to help improve the image of atheism by coming out of the closet, there is no moral imperative. You simply lack the popular belief that there is a supernatural being that influences the world. Do what's best for your own self interest. There is no obligation to become an atheist martyr.

I don't agree that one must always be honest. There are times when diplomacy is more important than honesty. Respecting the feelings of your elderly grandmother is one of those times. It takes more courage and self discipline to be able to do that than it does to make a self satisfying statement about your personal beliefs that might upset someone who you love and respect. Be honest with yourself and be diplomatic with others.

Btw, I'm often out of the closet but that's my personal decision and not one that I made due to the pressure placed on me by others. Decide what's right for you. That's all that really matters. If in time you feel ready to be more open about your atheism, you will find a way to do so.

beth · 05-30-2003, 07:12 AM

I think SouthernHybrid is right. I am out of the closet to my family and have basically been shunned by them. I am in the closet, however, with my inlaws. I still even attend church with them

out of respect to my mother-in-law. She has an auto imune disease that is currently in remission, but stress could cause her to be sick again. Since she loves me as her own and seems to care for me more than my own mother does, I think that knews of my atheism would devastate her and cause much distress. Just pick and chose who you are willing to be honest with and are willing to suffer the reprocussions of that honesty.

CX · 05-30-2003, 07:24 AM

Niggle,

I think every nontheist has faced this or will face this at some point. My mother has always been somewhat religious and my father was "born again" around 1990, went to seminary and is now an Episcopal Deacon with a very conservative evangelical theological stance. Obviously since he is clergy there is plenty of ritual etc. at his house. When I first came out to my parents several years ago I simply sent my father an email with a brief explanation of my nonbelief. It created a stir for a short time, but has since become pretty much a non-issue between us. There has been the occaisional crisis, usually relating to my kids, but mostly we just don't discuss religion or related topics with eachother. When I'm at their house I participate in their rituals out of respect. I would do the same any time I was a guest anywhere (I have observed Hindu, Buddhist and Baha'i rituals at the homes of various friends and colleagues). Since there is no underlying reality to these rituals for me I see no reason to upset my friends and family by openly rejecting them. Everyone knows where I am on the dial. That being said it's really all a matter of what you feel comfortable with. Personally I don't think anyone is obligated to openly state his or her particular metaphysical position. Additionally it seems to me that we as nonbelievers need not be crusaders against religion, but rather promoters of critical thinking and skepticism. In the end, with the exception of very elderly relatives, I suspect it will relieve you considerably to let people know where you stand. It is possible to do so in a nonconfrontational way that should not be viewed as an assault on someone's faith. There will likely be ripples, but those storms will most likely pass. If they do not, the problem is not yours, but theirs. You may find that after an initial period of some confrontation they prefer to avoid the issue altogether. My mother sounds very much like yours only her approach is probably different. She insists on second guessing and debating everything. When I moved to the midwest from California I already had half my furniture of the truck and she was still arguing that I should hire a couple neighbor kids to help me. Even so she never discusses religion with me. Good Luck.

Shake · 06-01-2003, 12:28 PM

Niggle, I'm gonna cut and paste a bit here, as much of what I believe re: your situation has been posted already. Hope y'all don't mind. I put in my own 2� as well, though.

Let's get started:

Quote:

from Jennie
You know your own family best, so that's your call

All the rest of us can speculate and offer advice, but you know the people involved better than we could (without meeting them, and even then...), so you know the risks that coming out would involve better. You also know how much of those consequences you'd be able to deal with, or how much they'd bother you.

Quote:

about being asked to say grace before meals, when I was in the coming out stage, I generally tried to defer and pass the buck to someone else. That usually meant saying, "no thanks" or "not today" or "I don't feel like it today" or "how about dad/grandpa? he should do it" to sort of force the head of household position of authority

Yeah, this is fine if you're unsure, or are afraid of rocking the boat too much. Some folks are considerate, though. My wife's uncle's family was over a while ago, and their 10-yr.-old asked her mother if we were going to say grace, and she was told that it was our house, and if we didn't normally do that, then we couldn't be expected to do so. This was a breath of fresh air to me, since I know they go to church, but they're obviously tolerant people. I wouldn't feel any anxiety about coming out to that particular part of the family.

Quote:

Family matters are one thing, and public interaction another.

I don't make a scene at family gatherings - all my wife's family are fundy - I'll hold hands or whatever - but in these times, when there is a climate of Christian Fascism growing in America, I consider it my civic duty to politely (initially anyway) but firmly inform anyone spouting off Christian political nonsense that I will not be going along quietly. If they want to have a reasonable discussion, be reasonable; but if they want to shout, they'll be shouted at.

This is a very good point! I think most would agree that they care less about pissing off people in public rather than family. You can walk away from the public, but family is always there (even if you're physically far away). I am quiet and respectful when I'm at relatives houses where they do say grace or pray or whatever. That said, I don't lower my head, close my eyes, and will politely decline if I am ever asked to give a prayer or say grace. I've always (well ok, only somewhat recently) thought that if pressed, I'd make it completely secular, thanking the truck drivers, farmers, and grocers who made it possible for me to have the food that was in the meal. I'd thank car manufacturers, the airlines, etc. for bringing family together. And so on... I'd probably never get asked again. As an aside, I feel that Thanksgiving doesn't have to have any religious overtones at all, and we can use it to think of the kinds of people that I just mentioned who often work long hours, or at least not the standard M-F, 9-5 which a lot of us do.

Blondegoddess has pointed out what some of the specific consequences can be to coming out to family. These are the risks you could run. As I said earlier, you know better than we what exactly those might be, but even so, you could still be surprised at who might react negatively. I've read enough testimonies here to have seen that sometimes the folks that you think might be the most understanding are often just as upset and offended when we come out to them. Most of us often worry about older family members, "Oh, it'd just kill grandma if she found out!" But the surprise can be good, too. For example, a month or two ago, my wife outed me in front of her mother and grandmother. I was more concerned about the grandmothers' reaction, which (surprise to me!) was one of indifference (acceptance? not sure), but certainly not what I expected as I know she is very faithful!

You might even try some exploratory conversation to get a feel of what reactions you might get before coming out. Just tactfully dodge any direct questions if you're still not ready or you get a dose of shocked concern. "Why? Surely, you're not an atheist are you?" You: "I just brought up <topic> because I found it interesting. And don't call me Shirley."

Anyway, good luck with it.

TomboyMom · 06-02-2003, 10:29 AM

My perspective:
I'm a lesbian who has been out for almost 30 years. I've reached a point in my life where I can say that I am always out about that, everywhere, all the time. I think it gives me a perspective that I can share with you about your personal closet issue.

I think it's significant that the question you are asking is about the morality of your decision. I think there is a strong relationship between coming out and morality, because there is a strong relation between morality, honesty, and happiness. Coming out is really about being honest.

It is very much your personal decision. No one, including us brother and sister atheists, can tell you definitively what to do. It is very much your personal decision, because you have the most information about it, and you and only you have to live with the consequences.

However, you have asked for our views. I want to come down on the side of coming out. You say: I told myself I wasn't
going to play along anymore. I was going to be honest about who I was and just accept the
consequences. This is what you really want to do. I think in your heart you have good reasons for this, personal, "spritual", and political. You are just finding it hard to take that first step off the high dive, and wondering what the consequences will be. Again, you say something still bothers me about going through the motions of religious rituals like praying. What is that something? Pay attention to your answer.

Advantages to coming out:
It helps you to feel more positive about your self and your beliefs. (If you really feel O.K. about what you are doing, why hide it?
Honesty really is the best policy.
It's instant political activism. If you do nothing but come out--not attend a single meeting--you are fighting for atheist rights and views on a one-person-at-a-time level. You are dispelling any myths that people may be harboring about evil atheists--because I bet you are not evil and these people know it. In fact I bet you are quite nice, so anyone you come out to would thereby know one nice atheist.
It puts you in a position where you can have real relationships with the people you care about. Otherwise they are relating to a person who doesn't exist: christian you. That shows respect for them and yourself.
You may actually change someone's mind--you never know.
You may meet another atheist. Maybe you already know another closeted atheist. Wouldn't it be nice to find each other?
Finally, "to thine own self be true; and it must follow as the night the day, thou cans't be
untrue to any man."

Good luck and keep us posted.

Rene

auto-da-fe · 06-02-2003, 11:19 AM

Quote:

I agree. I think that too many atheists are doing themselves a disservice by not "coming out,

for my opinion, I think coming out about your beliefs, or lack there of, is sort of like coming out about sexuality. It is noones business but yours, and those you determine it should be (family freinds, etc.) so in a professional setting as was mentioned above, I find it best to just keep my beliefs to myself unless specifically asked otherwise, and even then sometimes i don't say. Just like I don't feel it is neccassary for someone who is gay to constantly remind every single person of that fact (just like I don't feel the need to remind everyone that I am hetero), I also feel the same way about my agnostic ways. I don't see any reason why the entire world has to know my beliefs, and I don't feel I should subject them to it.

One of the things that pisses me off the most about theist (mostly xians) is that they make every single freaking conversation or occurance about their stupid freaking religon and belifs. This pisses me off to no ends. I have a very fundy sister, and I almost always avoid talking to her, simply because we cannot carry on a conversation without her trying to witness to me. I don't like it when they do it, and I don't think I should do it either, otherwise I would be guilty of being just as hypocritical as most of those fundy freaks are.

anyway, when it comes down to it, the person who said you know your family best pretty much nailed it on the head.

06-02-2003, 10:29 AM	#29
TomboyMom Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,931	perpsective from an adjacent closet My perspective: I'm a lesbian who has been out for almost 30 years. I've reached a point in my life where I can say that I am always out about that, everywhere, all the time. I think it gives me a perspective that I can share with you about your personal closet issue. I think it's significant that the question you are asking is about the morality of your decision. I think there is a strong relationship between coming out and morality, because there is a strong relation between morality, honesty, and happiness. Coming out is really about being honest. It is very much your personal decision. No one, including us brother and sister atheists, can tell you definitively what to do. It is very much your personal decision, because you have the most information about it, and you and only you have to live with the consequences. However, you have asked for our views. I want to come down on the side of coming out. You say: I told myself I wasn't going to play along anymore. I was going to be honest about who I was and just accept the consequences. This is what you really want to do. I think in your heart you have good reasons for this, personal, "spritual", and political. You are just finding it hard to take that first step off the high dive, and wondering what the consequences will be. Again, you say something still bothers me about going through the motions of religious rituals like praying. What is that something? Pay attention to your answer. Advantages to coming out: It helps you to feel more positive about your self and your beliefs. (If you really feel O.K. about what you are doing, why hide it? Honesty really is the best policy. It's instant political activism. If you do nothing but come out--not attend a single meeting--you are fighting for atheist rights and views on a one-person-at-a-time level. You are dispelling any myths that people may be harboring about evil atheists--because I bet you are not evil and these people know it. In fact I bet you are quite nice, so anyone you come out to would thereby know one nice atheist. It puts you in a position where you can have real relationships with the people you care about. Otherwise they are relating to a person who doesn't exist: christian you. That shows respect for them and yourself. You may actually change someone's mind--you never know. You may meet another atheist. Maybe you already know another closeted atheist. Wouldn't it be nice to find each other? Finally, "to thine own self be true; and it must follow as the night the day, thou cans't be untrue to any man." Good luck and keep us posted. Rene

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05-30-2003, 05:57 AM	#25
southernhybrid Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: heavenly Georgia Posts: 3,862	Being an atheist means having no dogma, rules or mandatory rituals. While it may be important to some to help improve the image of atheism by coming out of the closet, there is no moral imperative. You simply lack the popular belief that there is a supernatural being that influences the world. Do what's best for your own self interest. There is no obligation to become an atheist martyr. I don't agree that one must always be honest. There are times when diplomacy is more important than honesty. Respecting the feelings of your elderly grandmother is one of those times. It takes more courage and self discipline to be able to do that than it does to make a self satisfying statement about your personal beliefs that might upset someone who you love and respect. Be honest with yourself and be diplomatic with others. Btw, I'm often out of the closet but that's my personal decision and not one that I made due to the pressure placed on me by others. Decide what's right for you. That's all that really matters. If in time you feel ready to be more open about your atheism, you will find a way to do so.

05-30-2003, 07:12 AM	#26
beth Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: where orange blossoms bloom... Posts: 1,802	I think SouthernHybrid is right. I am out of the closet to my family and have basically been shunned by them. I am in the closet, however, with my inlaws. I still even attend church with them out of respect to my mother-in-law. She has an auto imune disease that is currently in remission, but stress could cause her to be sick again. Since she loves me as her own and seems to care for me more than my own mother does, I think that knews of my atheism would devastate her and cause much distress. Just pick and chose who you are willing to be honest with and are willing to suffer the reprocussions of that honesty.

05-30-2003, 07:24 AM	#27
CX Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Portlandish Posts: 2,829	Niggle, I think every nontheist has faced this or will face this at some point. My mother has always been somewhat religious and my father was "born again" around 1990, went to seminary and is now an Episcopal Deacon with a very conservative evangelical theological stance. Obviously since he is clergy there is plenty of ritual etc. at his house. When I first came out to my parents several years ago I simply sent my father an email with a brief explanation of my nonbelief. It created a stir for a short time, but has since become pretty much a non-issue between us. There has been the occaisional crisis, usually relating to my kids, but mostly we just don't discuss religion or related topics with eachother. When I'm at their house I participate in their rituals out of respect. I would do the same any time I was a guest anywhere (I have observed Hindu, Buddhist and Baha'i rituals at the homes of various friends and colleagues). Since there is no underlying reality to these rituals for me I see no reason to upset my friends and family by openly rejecting them. Everyone knows where I am on the dial. That being said it's really all a matter of what you feel comfortable with. Personally I don't think anyone is obligated to openly state his or her particular metaphysical position. Additionally it seems to me that we as nonbelievers need not be crusaders against religion, but rather promoters of critical thinking and skepticism. In the end, with the exception of very elderly relatives, I suspect it will relieve you considerably to let people know where you stand. It is possible to do so in a nonconfrontational way that should not be viewed as an assault on someone's faith. There will likely be ripples, but those storms will most likely pass. If they do not, the problem is not yours, but theirs. You may find that after an initial period of some confrontation they prefer to avoid the issue altogether. My mother sounds very much like yours only her approach is probably different. She insists on second guessing and debating everything. When I moved to the midwest from California I already had half my furniture of the truck and she was still arguing that I should hire a couple neighbor kids to help me. Even so she never discusses religion with me. Good Luck.

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