Freethought & Rationalism Archive

crazyfingers · 11-05-2002, 08:32 AM

From the newswire today. Is this old news now?

Quote:

As an expert on scripts and an historian of writing systems, I was asked to examine this inscription and make a report. I did.

The bone-box is original; the first inscription, which is in Aramaic, "Jacob son of Joseph," is authentic. The second half of the inscription, "brother of Jesus," is a poorly executed fake and a later addition. This report has already been distributed on at least two scholarly lists.

Please note that the fraud is so blatant that I did not bother to go into extreme detail on whether the faked addition is supposed to be Hebrew or Aramaic. (If that's a vav, -- then it's Hebrew, not Aramaic; if it's yod, then it's says 'my brother', not 'his brother' or 'brother of'. By no stretch of the imagination can one claim this to be in Aramaic... 'of' in Aramaic is 'di'.)

You have to be blind as a bat not to see that the second part is a fraud.

Here is the report: *Snip *

<a href="http://www.jewsweek.com/myturn/320.htm" target="_blank">Story</a>

beejay · 11-05-2002, 09:23 AM

And could someone tell those of us who haven't been following the story closely...

Is the author of the above linked article a serious scholar to be believed?

Whether Jesus existed or not wouldn't affect my beliefs, but (for my own edification) I would like to know if this was a fake like the Shroud of Turin....

Kosh · 11-05-2002, 09:29 AM

I see that Rochelle is still claiming the text was excised. Although in the pictures it *appears* to be incised. How does one account for this? Is it an optical illusion from the photograph? Or is Rochelle just wrong on this one point? Or is she wrong on all points? Would like to a review of her viewpoint. Is this on the Xtalk list?

The_Gorgonzola · 11-05-2002, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh:
I see that Rochelle is still claiming the text was excised. Although in the pictures it *appears* to be incised. How does one account for this? Is it an optical illusion from the photograph? Or is Rochelle just wrong on this one point? Or is she wrong on all points? Would like to a review of her viewpoint. Is this on the Xtalk list?

From <a href="http://listserv.lehigh.edu/lists/Archives/ioudaios-l/0006.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.lehigh.edu/lists/Archives/ioudaios-l/0006.html</a>

Dr. Altman says that from the first photograph she saw that they all appeard excised but from a second higher res photo she says that the first half appears incised but the second half appears excised.

It all looks incised to me.

Gorgo

CX · 11-05-2002, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by crazyfingers:
From the newswire today. Is this old news now?

<a href="http://www.jewsweek.com/myturn/320.htm" target="_blank">Story</a>

This was discussed earlier in one of the threads on the ossuary here. As I recall the primary objections are that Altman has not examined the actually artifact, but images and that her C.V. is somewhat light in the face of the considerable expertise and experience of Lemaire.

Egoinos · 11-05-2002, 03:26 PM

She's quoted as a prominent critic in <a href="http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en.jsp?enPage=ArticlePage&enDisplay=view&enDispWha t=object&enDispWho=Article%5El1599&enZone=Culture& enVersion=0&" target="_blank">Israel Insider</a>:

Quote:

An ancient burial box believed to have belonged to James, the Biblical brother of Jesus, was damaged while being sent for display at a Toronto museum. The museum is awaiting word from the ossuary's owner before attempting to repair the box, but the owner is being questioned by police as the burial box may actually belong to the State of Israel. Meanwhile, Israeli scholars insist that the inscription on the box is a fraud.
...
Rochelle I. Altman, co-coordinator of IOUDAIOS-L, a virtual community of scholars engaged in on-line discussion of Judaism in the Greco-Roman world, says that people are taking Sorbonne University paleographer Andre Lemaire's word too quickly when he stated "that the inscription is incised."

Both Altman and noted paleographer Ada Yardeni have concluded that the second part of the inscription was added later. "There are two hands; two different scripts; two different social strata, two different levels of execution, two different levels of literacy, and two different carvers," Altman says.

Altman believes that the second half was actually written in the 3rd or 4th century, while Paul Flesher at the University of Wyoming, an expert on Hebraicized Aramaic dialects, dates it anywhere between the 2nd and 7th centuries.

"The reason the police are onto Golan is that there are two such ossuaries, both already known and photographed in a book on the ossuaries in collections in Israel published in 1996. This one was not bought at an antique dealer in the 1960s, but at an auction, from a museum, in the 1980s," Altman says.

(Wanted to share the link, didn't know which thread to post it in)

--Egoinos--

Toto · 11-05-2002, 04:48 PM

<a href="http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021105/UOSSUN/national/national/national_temp/4/4/24/" target="_blank">Another interesting story</a>

Quote:

Hershel Shanks, editor of Biblical Archaeology Review, the Washington magazine that broke the sensational news of the discovery, said at a press conference on Oct. 21 that Mr. Golan told him he had bought the ossuary 15 or 16 years ago for about $500 (U.S.) from a dealer. However, Mr. Golan reportedly told police that he'd had it since some time in 1967, before the state property law was enacted.

Mr. Shanks attempted to explain the discrepancy yesterday which, he acknowledged, "is confusing. I was confused." When Andr� Lemaire, author of the Archaeology Review story and chair of the Hebrew and Aramaic philology and epigraphy section at the Sorbonne in Paris, first saw the ossuary in March of this year, he asked Mr. Golan: "How long has it been here?" Fifteen or 16 years, Mr. Golan replied.

But, according to Mr. Shanks, Mr. Golan thought the "here" meant his apartment, which he has occupied since the mid-1980s. Previously, the ossuary had been housed for at least 10 years in the apartment of Mr. Golan's parents, Mr. Shanks said.

Vorkosigan · 11-05-2002, 09:32 PM

But, according to Mr. Shanks, Mr. Golan thought the "here" meant his apartment, which he has occupied since the mid-1980s. Previously, the ossuary had been housed for at least 10 years in the apartment of Mr. Golan's parents, Mr. Shanks said.

Wow! This guy can think on his feet! I find it interesting that there are two such ossuaries. I suppose one is the ossuary of James when he was killed in 62, and other of James when he lived to be 90.

Altman says it was bought at auction from A MUSEUM! What museum had this piece and didn't know what it was! Golan probably knew all along it was a fake, had to, and knew what it was, too. Surely the museum prepared a translation of the inscription for the buyer...

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Vorkosigan ]

Dark Jedi · 11-05-2002, 09:41 PM

Edited because I'm a moderator, and should know better.

Bad Jedi. No soup for you!

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Dark Jedi ]

Peter Kirby · 11-05-2002, 11:31 PM

Vorkosigan, if the auction were like the ones at which I have attended, any extra information that would require any work would not be provided. You see it, you buy it, end of story. I guess we would have to talk to the "owner" to find out how it actually was acquired, but the owner has motive to lie because of Israeli law on the acquisition of artifacts.

best,
Peter Kirby

11-05-2002, 09:32 PM	#8
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	But, according to Mr. Shanks, Mr. Golan thought the "here" meant his apartment, which he has occupied since the mid-1980s. Previously, the ossuary had been housed for at least 10 years in the apartment of Mr. Golan's parents, Mr. Shanks said. Wow! This guy can think on his feet! I find it interesting that there are two such ossuaries. I suppose one is the ossuary of James when he was killed in 62, and other of James when he lived to be 90. Altman says it was bought at auction from A MUSEUM! What museum had this piece and didn't know what it was! Golan probably knew all along it was a fake, had to, and knew what it was, too. Surely the museum prepared a translation of the inscription for the buyer... [ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Vorkosigan ]</p>

11-05-2002, 09:41 PM	#9
Dark Jedi Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Afghanistan Posts: 4,666	Edited because I'm a moderator, and should know better. Bad Jedi. No soup for you! [ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Dark Jedi ]</p>

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11-05-2002, 09:23 AM	#2
beejay Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Richmond IN Posts: 375	And could someone tell those of us who haven't been following the story closely... Is the author of the above linked article a serious scholar to be believed? Whether Jesus existed or not wouldn't affect my beliefs, but (for my own edification) I would like to know if this was a fake like the Shroud of Turin....

11-05-2002, 09:29 AM	#3
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	I see that Rochelle is still claiming the text was excised. Although in the pictures it appears to be incised. How does one account for this? Is it an optical illusion from the photograph? Or is Rochelle just wrong on this one point? Or is she wrong on all points? Would like to a review of her viewpoint. Is this on the Xtalk list?

11-05-2002, 11:31 PM	#10
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Vorkosigan, if the auction were like the ones at which I have attended, any extra information that would require any work would not be provided. You see it, you buy it, end of story. I guess we would have to talk to the "owner" to find out how it actually was acquired, but the owner has motive to lie because of Israeli law on the acquisition of artifacts. best, Peter Kirby

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