Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MrDarwin · 12-16-2002, 10:28 AM

While not exactly a contradiction or inconsistency, the following is my all-time favorite biblical "difficulty" in the sense that it really makes people squirm when you put it to them, and they have great difficulty explaining how it is relevant to their lives as a Christian:

Deuteronomy 21: 18-21:

Quote:

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. Yes, be very afraid indeed.

Try asking somebody whether it should be legal for parents to subject their children to such punishment, or whether they would ever subject their child to such a punishment. Most will say no to both questions, if they answer at all. But then it raises the interesting question of why they would pick or choose to follow one part of the bible or another.

-DM- · 12-16-2002, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SirenSpeak: Actually...Judas himself did not buy the field. IIRC the Bible states that he returned the money to the temple authorities before hanging himself, and the money was then used to buy burial grounds.

Speaking of Judas . . .

LK 22:3-23 Satan entered Judas before the supper.
JN 13:27 It was during the supper.

LK 22:28-30 Jesus assigns each of his twelve disciples (including Judas, his betrayer) a place (or throne) in his kingdom (which seems rather strange).

MT 26:14-25, MK 14:10-11, LK 22:3-23 Judas made his bargain with the chief priests before the meal.
JN 13:21-30 After the meal.

MT 26:49-50, MK 14:44-46 Jesus is betrayed by Judas with a kiss, then seized.
LK 22:47-48 Jesus anticipates Judas' kiss. No actual kiss is mentioned.
JN 18:2-9 Jesus voluntarily steps forward to identify himself making it completely unnecessary for Judas to point him out. No kiss is mentioned.

JN 17:12 Jesus has lost none of his disciples other than Judas.
JN 18:9 Jesus has lost none, period.

MT 27:3-7 The chief priests bought the field.
AC 1:16-19 Judas bought the field.

MT 27:5 Judas threw down the pieces of silver, then departed.
AC 1:18 He used the coins to buy the field.

MT 27:5 Judas hanged himself.
AC 1:18 He fell headlong, burst open, and his bowels gushed out.

-Don-

thebeave · 12-16-2002, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Bowden:
I hope you'll share your top 10 list with us when you've finished making your selections, Adrian!

Here's my nomination for the #1 underappreciated Bible absurdity:

According to 1 Kings 6:2, and 2 Chronicles 3:3, Solomon's temple was only about ninety feet long by thirty feet wide. So, by the Bible's own testimony, this temple had area of about 2700 sq feet, or covered about the same acreage as a modern middle-class home. Keeping that comparison in mind:

-153,300 persons were employed to build the temple (1 Kings 5:15-16),
-it took seven years to build it (1 Kings 6:38),
-13,100,000 lbs. of gold* and 116,400,000 lbs. of silver were consumed in its construction (1 Chronicles 22:14), and
-24,000 supervisors and 6,000 officials and judges were employed to manage it (1 Chronicles 23:4).

The problem: How many builders, supervisors, officials, and judges (and how much raw material and time) does it take, in real life, to construct and manage a building that isn't even as big as your average Super 8 Motel? If any of these figures is admitted to be wrong, it establishes an interesting precedent: what else does the inspired word of God claim, that's actually not true?

-David

(*) - Or, about 2/3 of the entire world's gold mined prior to the 1848 gold rush. According to the World Gold Council's <a href="http://www.gold.org/discover/knowledge/aboutgold/gold_prod/" target="_blank">article</a> on gold production throughout history:
"Some calculations suggest that up until then [1848] scarcely 10,000 tonnes of gold had been excavated since the beginning of time." The Bible claims that 6,500 tons of it was already mined and concentrated in the hands of the Israelites, about three thousand years ago. This 6,500 tons can't possibly include any of the gold mined in pre-Columbian South America, nor the thousands of tons mined by the Egyptians, Romans and others in the centuries after the time of Solomon. So it would seem that all (or, perhaps, more than all) of the world's mined gold was in Israel at that time, if the Bible is not in error.

(PS - If you're looking for lots more Bible difficulties pointed out by unbelievers and haven't come across the following resources before, the II Library's <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/errancy.shtml" target="_blank">page on Biblical Errancy</a> could be helpful, along with the <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.html" target="_blank">Skeptic's Annotated Bible</a>.)

[ December 15, 2002: Message edited by: David Bowden ]

I don't find this outrageous at all. Sounds to me like it could be a typical 21st century US government construction project.

AJ113 · 12-16-2002, 12:33 PM

Excellent response so far, peeps. I think that it will take me some time time to establish the definitive top ten, but I will post it here when I have completed my research.

In the meantime I welcome any further contributions. Please keep them coming, you could save me a whole load of time spent researching!

Adrian

Butters · 12-16-2002, 01:13 PM

The funniest one for me is 2Kings 2:23,24
Elisha curses forty-two children for calling Elisha "bald head", and God sends to she bears to kill them all. The really funny part is that most Christians who claim to have read the Bible, have never heard of this.
The sad part is to read Holding trying to defend this as a morally correct action on Gods part.
Cognitive dissonace is a scary thing.

doc58 · 12-16-2002, 05:34 PM

I have 2 favorites:

1) Deut 22 requires proof of virginity- which doesn't exist. And as Don M. would say, an omnipotent God could, should have and would have known this fact.

Deut22:13 "Suppose a man marries a woman and, after sleeping with her, changes his mind about her 14 and falsely accuses her of having slept with another man. He might say, 'I discovered she was not a virgin when I married her.' 15 If the man does this, the woman's father and mother must bring the proof of her virginity to the leaders of the town. 16 Her father must tell them, 'I gave my daughter to this man to be his wife, and now he has turned against her. 17 He has accused her of shameful things, claiming that she was not a virgin when he married her. But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity.' Then they must spread the cloth before the judges. 18 The judges must then punish the man. 19 They will fine him one hundred pieces of silver, F37 for he falsely accused a virgin of Israel. The payment will be made to the woman's father. The woman will then remain the man's wife, and he may never divorce her. 20 "But suppose the man's accusations are true, and her virginity could not be proved. 21 In such cases, the judges must take the girl to the door of her father's home, and the men of the town will stone her to death. She has committed a disgraceful crime in Israel by being promiscuous while living in her parents' home. Such evil must be cleansed from among you.

2) Here a women gets the privilege of marrying her rapist. What a great God!!!!

Deut 22:28 "If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, 29 he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

NOGO · 12-16-2002, 05:57 PM

I have many.

Rather than giving you one which I have read or heard about I will give you one which I can claim as my own.

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000622" target="_blank">God's Plan</a>

I will repost this topic again since the thread above was highjacked.

NOGO · 12-16-2002, 06:18 PM

Quote:

"the gods" whereever the religious liars write "the LORD"

Actually the bigger lie here is that the word LORD replaces Elohim and also Yahweh which hides the fact that the Torah was assembled from two traditions. Thuse Genesis 1 God is referred to as Elohim and Genesis 2 is another creation story and the God is called Yahweh.

Celsus · 12-16-2002, 06:29 PM

I posted this a while back:

Quote:

Actually, it seems to be a problem with any translation that the names of God must be rendered in English, for which no real adequate translation can be given. As with all translations, only the speakers of the original tongue will really know what was meant. For example:
Variant names of God:
El - Canaanite chief deity, generic name for god
Eloha - sometimes used in place of Elohim
Elohim - God or gods or Gods
Elyon - Most High, (Canaanite pseudonym for El?) mostly patriarchal usage

Yahweh:
YHWH - special Hebrew name revealed to Moses in Exodus 6. "'ehye 'asher 'ehye" - "I am that shall be"
Now if YHWH is derived from etiologically Exodus 6, then perhaps so too was Asherah? A few artifacts have been found with the following captions: "Blessed ... by YHWH .. and his Asherah" (Khirbet-el-Kom), and "May X be blessed by YHWH and his Asherah" (Kuntillet Ajrud). The Bible never condemns the Israelites for worshipping YHWH and Asherah together, and in fact, possible Yahwist shrines in Palestine have been found with what appear to be sockets for the practice of erecting Asherah poles (which were admonished by the Bible, but only in Deuteronomic history).

Unique to Genesis:
El Olam - God the Everlasting One
El Bethel - God of Bethel
El Ro'i - God of Vision

Others:
El Shaddai - God Almighty or of the Mountains
Baal - Lord, Canaanite agricultural deity

Notice in early names that the only names associated with YHWH were Joshua and possibly Jochebed. Both were closely associated with Moses, and according to tradition, YHWH was only revealed to Moses. Egyptologists also indicate that the God of Midian (where Moses was exiled) is referred to as Shasu: Yhw3. Other early names, especially Gideon (Jerubbaal) and Saul's household (Mephibaal and Ishbaal - '-baal' was altered to '-bosheth') associate themselves with Baal. These folk heros were probably coopted by later Yahwists.

Because of millenia of Christian usage of Lord, Most High, Almighty and so on, translations will always struggle to get the meaning across to the non-native reader. I think this probably happened with the Israelites after coopting Hebrew (i.e. Canaanite) deities. For example:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations; ask your father, and he will show you; your elders, and they will tell you. When Elyon (the Most High) gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of Elohim (God - some manuscripts: Israel). For YHWH (the Lord)'s portion is his people, Jacob his alloted heritage.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deuteronomy 32:7-8
Earlier polytheism? More likely they were henotheists by the Deuteronomic stage (believing in many Gods, but worshipping only one). How ever, the passage does imply that YHWH was subordinate to Elyon, and appeals (internally) to old traditions.

Another example:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who has commanded and it came to pass, unless Adonai (the Lord) has ordained it? Is it not from the mouth of Elyon (the Most High) that good and evil come?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lamentations 3:37-38
Does this resolve a controversy about the origins of evil?

Translations will always face a problem through familiarisation of certain words such that they become recognisable only as pseudonyms for God. There's no real point in stating whether one is better than another.

David Bowden · 12-16-2002, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Morgan:
Of course the Bible and most of these difficulties are in the public domain, having been identified by many different authors in the past. Still, in the case of any specific arrangement of the words, and when the source is known (and I'm not saying that it necessarily was in these two instances) it is nice to identify the source.

Duly noted, Don; I owe you my apology. I copied and adapted that post's material from a big text file of contradictions which I had compiled, in a(n irresponsible) hurry, from various sources, a couple of years ago. Given the nearly identical wording I'm certain that the original material for that temple absurdity came from your page, and I've added your credit to my text file.

(That said, I did hunt down the World Gold Council statistic on my own.)

-David

[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: David Bowden ]

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12-16-2002, 12:33 PM	#34
AJ113 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Hull UK Posts: 854	Excellent response so far, peeps. I think that it will take me some time time to establish the definitive top ten, but I will post it here when I have completed my research. In the meantime I welcome any further contributions. Please keep them coming, you could save me a whole load of time spent researching! Adrian

12-16-2002, 01:13 PM	#35
Butters Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Houston Texas Posts: 444	The funniest one for me is 2Kings 2:23,24 Elisha curses forty-two children for calling Elisha "bald head", and God sends to she bears to kill them all. The really funny part is that most Christians who claim to have read the Bible, have never heard of this. The sad part is to read Holding trying to defend this as a morally correct action on Gods part. Cognitive dissonace is a scary thing.

12-16-2002, 05:34 PM	#36
doc58 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 101	I have 2 favorites: 1) Deut 22 requires proof of virginity- which doesn't exist. And as Don M. would say, an omnipotent God could, should have and would have known this fact. Deut22:13 "Suppose a man marries a woman and, after sleeping with her, changes his mind about her 14 and falsely accuses her of having slept with another man. He might say, 'I discovered she was not a virgin when I married her.' 15 If the man does this, the woman's father and mother must bring the proof of her virginity to the leaders of the town. 16 Her father must tell them, 'I gave my daughter to this man to be his wife, and now he has turned against her. 17 He has accused her of shameful things, claiming that she was not a virgin when he married her. But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity.' Then they must spread the cloth before the judges. 18 The judges must then punish the man. 19 They will fine him one hundred pieces of silver, F37 for he falsely accused a virgin of Israel. The payment will be made to the woman's father. The woman will then remain the man's wife, and he may never divorce her. 20 "But suppose the man's accusations are true, and her virginity could not be proved. 21 In such cases, the judges must take the girl to the door of her father's home, and the men of the town will stone her to death. She has committed a disgraceful crime in Israel by being promiscuous while living in her parents' home. Such evil must be cleansed from among you. 2) Here a women gets the privilege of marrying her rapist. What a great God!!!! Deut 22:28 "If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, 29 he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

12-16-2002, 05:57 PM	#37
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	I have many. Rather than giving you one which I have read or heard about I will give you one which I can claim as my own. <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000622" target="_blank">God's Plan</a> I will repost this topic again since the thread above was highjacked.

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