Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kosh · 10-31-2002, 06:13 AM

In another thread David Payne wrote:

Quote:

Dreamer, though I can't talk about the historical accuracy of this or that story of the birth of Islam, the actions of Mohammad etc, I can link 9/11 and other Islamic terrorism to Islam, and that is in a broader sense is what this thread is about, terrorism, big or small. Though I have a dim view of all religion, Islam is the most dangerous of them right now as far as threatening the survival of humanity. Like it or not, it's the Islamic zealots that are looking to create war with the west for our "corruption" and "oppression" of "their people." And these groups will use any weapons they can get to attack us. The worse the weapon, the better as far as they are concerned. Besides that I can think of no weapon used in war and found to be effective, that wasn't used in another, later war. Can you? So sooner or later one of these radical Islamic groups will get and use a weapon of mass destruction. I'll have more on this line of thinking shortly, for your reading pleasure. <http://iidb.org/ubb/wink.gif>

Just what is this oppression that they keep whining about? What is it that we're supposedly doing to them? I must be truly ignorant about this, because from my perspective, I see us pumping billions of dollars into their economy (through oil purchases) that they otherwise would not have. If it weren't for the oil, it seems to me they'd be in even worse shape. So maybe someone can enlighten us as to just what it is we're supposedly doing over there (other than to maybe educate the people and be in danger of "Americanising" them so the women won't put up with their male dominated oppression anymore. Seems to me that it's their own governments who may be abusing them (ie, hoarding all the money they get for oil).

I can't help but wonder if this isn't like a scene from "Life of Bryan":

"Oh sure, but except for better roads, education, a sewer system, better health, and an overall better standard of living, WHAT HAVE THE ROMANS REALLY DONE FOR US?"

Someone help me out here.

HaysooChreesto! · 10-31-2002, 07:30 AM

To me, it seems that the Islamic definition of oppression is different than the modern world's.
I get the idea that if someone doesn't believe in Allah, then Muslims are being oppressed.
If the U.S. doesn't take any action to free all the oppressed Arabs under 8th century theocracies and Stalinist dictatorships, then we are playing a part in their oppression.
If the U.S. does take action to free them from said tyrants, then we are playing a part in their oppression.
If the U.S. takes action against terrorist groups that have inflicted billions in damage and thousands of lost lives, they are being oppressed.
If militant Muslims are not allowed to go to western countries and plot violence against the chosen country, they are being oppressed.

It is an endless shell game conducted by people who despise reason.

In short, just like any religion, their idea of oppression is whatever is advantageous to them in any given situation.
Just listen to Xtian talk radio for an hour and you will hear about the world wide persecution of Xtians and the subsequent call for donations to stop this modern day holocaust of Jesus' children, blah, blah, blah. The difference is though, that Xtians have evolved along with western thought and Muslims simply haven't.

BibleBelted · 10-31-2002, 01:43 PM

Maybe they are talking more about economic and cultural oppression than religious, but like our fundies they see all their problems as being rooted in disobedience to their god.

I've worked in the Middle East, and although we pump billions of dollars in there every year, there are far more people living in wretched misery than in luxury. If you're a member of a Saudi or Kuwaiti royal family, or well-connected, you'll do fine . . but take a walk through downtown Cairo, or Lagos, or anyplace in Pakistan and you'll wonder why the suicide rate isn't about 90%.

A lot of it is misguided jealousy, I'll agree. They see us living comfortable lives while they are forced into awful conditions just to survive -- like clearing minefields for about $200/month - while their home governments get an equal amount.

The US and British governments don't have entirely clean hands, though. We care more about "stability" in the region, and the oil, than we do about human rights and civil liberties for these poor, wretched people.

There is also tremendous censorship to go along with their cultural biases (which are heavily cultivated) against any western permissiveness.

And, of course, there's also the Israel deal if they need something else to be pissed about.

Their culture is so foreign, and isolated, from ours in so many ways that it is truly difficult to comprehend their mindset. All they know for sure is their lives suck, and if the religious leaders tell them it is because of western liberalism, there is no one around to tell them any different.

hinduwoman · 11-01-2002, 05:26 PM

Cannot speak about Islamic states, but where Muslims are a minority, it is the way they are brought up to think exclusively in Islamic terms --- if anyone criticises anything about Islam that is oppressing them; if any infidel country tries to modify shariah (like raising the age of marriage for girls from 12 to 18) that is also oppression.

From what I have read on Internet saying that some terrorists are Muslims is also oppression; from the WTC crash to Bali bombing it is all done by CIA and Mossad.

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10-31-2002, 07:30 AM	#2
HaysooChreesto! Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: SoCal USA Posts: 7,737	To me, it seems that the Islamic definition of oppression is different than the modern world's. I get the idea that if someone doesn't believe in Allah, then Muslims are being oppressed. If the U.S. doesn't take any action to free all the oppressed Arabs under 8th century theocracies and Stalinist dictatorships, then we are playing a part in their oppression. If the U.S. does take action to free them from said tyrants, then we are playing a part in their oppression. If the U.S. takes action against terrorist groups that have inflicted billions in damage and thousands of lost lives, they are being oppressed. If militant Muslims are not allowed to go to western countries and plot violence against the chosen country, they are being oppressed. It is an endless shell game conducted by people who despise reason. In short, just like any religion, their idea of oppression is whatever is advantageous to them in any given situation. Just listen to Xtian talk radio for an hour and you will hear about the world wide persecution of Xtians and the subsequent call for donations to stop this modern day holocaust of Jesus' children, blah, blah, blah. The difference is though, that Xtians have evolved along with western thought and Muslims simply haven't.

10-31-2002, 01:43 PM	#3
BibleBelted Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Oklahoma, USA Posts: 891	Maybe they are talking more about economic and cultural oppression than religious, but like our fundies they see all their problems as being rooted in disobedience to their god. I've worked in the Middle East, and although we pump billions of dollars in there every year, there are far more people living in wretched misery than in luxury. If you're a member of a Saudi or Kuwaiti royal family, or well-connected, you'll do fine . . but take a walk through downtown Cairo, or Lagos, or anyplace in Pakistan and you'll wonder why the suicide rate isn't about 90%. A lot of it is misguided jealousy, I'll agree. They see us living comfortable lives while they are forced into awful conditions just to survive -- like clearing minefields for about $200/month - while their home governments get an equal amount. The US and British governments don't have entirely clean hands, though. We care more about "stability" in the region, and the oil, than we do about human rights and civil liberties for these poor, wretched people. There is also tremendous censorship to go along with their cultural biases (which are heavily cultivated) against any western permissiveness. And, of course, there's also the Israel deal if they need something else to be pissed about. Their culture is so foreign, and isolated, from ours in so many ways that it is truly difficult to comprehend their mindset. All they know for sure is their lives suck, and if the religious leaders tell them it is because of western liberalism, there is no one around to tell them any different.

11-01-2002, 05:26 PM	#4
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Cannot speak about Islamic states, but where Muslims are a minority, it is the way they are brought up to think exclusively in Islamic terms --- if anyone criticises anything about Islam that is oppressing them; if any infidel country tries to modify shariah (like raising the age of marriage for girls from 12 to 18) that is also oppression. From what I have read on Internet saying that some terrorists are Muslims is also oppression; from the WTC crash to Bali bombing it is all done by CIA and Mossad.

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