hinduwoman

Do stoop Rivers.

for starters you can begin by:
give the names of female mullahs. Also I would like you to give names of them in the past, not now only.
Show where women have been given the right to vote in islam, and in fact where do you get the idea Islam preaches democracy?

Seraphim

Show where women have been given the right to vote in islam, and in fact where do you get the idea Islam preaches democracy?

My comment : There is no such practise in Islam about giving voting rights to women. Men are considered leaders and there for, all administrative works is done by them.

Example :
- Pakistan's 1st lady president - Benazir Bhutto was brought down from power despite of her vision to improve the nation by Muslim religion leaders.

- Muslim religion leaders also said to hatch plans to kill off Megawati Puteri, Indonesian current female president (which the people choose) because she is a woman and under Islam, women are not fit to rule.

- Even Philipine's female leader - Gloria (something ... forgot the full name) is used as excuse by Muslims fighters to promote their cause.

MollyMac

River,

Asking you to introduce me to an Islamic feminist and suggesting one of your wives was neither a sly nor an ignorant comment - it was a joke.

As it obviously didn't appeal to your sense of humour let me ask the question again in all seriousness: where am I to find an Islamic feminist, given that these two words are a contradiction in terms? In fact, before you made your suggestion, I had never seen before them sitting side by side in the same sentence.

River

-MollyMac

The U.S has quite a few Islamic feminists. There are some in the more "liberal" middle-eastern countries, but are not too visible or vocal due to corruption in the govt.

River

-Hinduwomen

You are not an authority when it comes to Hadiths translation.




Islamic Law regarding rights and obligations of husband and wife
Islam has put great stress on the relationship of husband and wife. It has clearly laid down the respective rights and obligations to avoid confusion and complication in this regard.

The basis of husband-wife relationship is love and compassion. In this regard the Quran states,

"And among His signs is this that He has created mates from among yourselves, that you may live in comfort with them, and he has put love and compassion among you (husband and wife). Surely in that are signs for those who think " (30: 21)

The role of husband normatively revolves round the principles that it is his solemn duty to Allah to treat his wife with kindness, honour and patience, to keep her honourably of free her from marital bond honourably, and to cause her no harm of grief (Quran, 2 : 229-32 and 4 : 19). The wife's position has been explained in the Quran by saying that-

"Women have similar rights over men as men have over women." (2 : 228)

The husband in Islamic law is under obligation to maintain her wife. Maintenance includes the wife's right to lodging, clothing, nourishing, care and well being. The wife has a right to enjoy all these things according to her status and according to capacity of her husband.

The wife, however, loses her right of maintenance, according to the unanimous opinion of the Muslim jurists, in case of Nushuz, that is her hatred of defiance of husband or her attraction to another person.

In case of husband's recalcitrance to maintain wife, the law enforcement agencies are required to enforce maintenance. The majority of Muslim jurists also allows the wife the right to seek divorce in such a case. If she wishes so, the court must comply with her request and grant her the divorce.

The wife has also the right to receive dower from the husband at the time or in consequence of marriage. The dower is a gift of husband to his wife. This symbolises an assurance of economic security from the husband towards wife. The amount can be big or small depending on mutual agreement and economic condition of the two parties. This is, however, no price of sexual enjoyment. This can not be so because sexual enjoyment is not a one-sided affair. (Ref: The Family Structure in Islam, Chapter 3, by Dr. Hammudah Abdul Ati, American Trust Publications).

The main obligation of the wife as a partner in a marital relationship is to contribute to the success and blissfulness of the marriage as much as possible. She should be attentive to the comfort and well being of her mate. The Quran mentions good wife as "comfort of eyes." (25 : 74)

The husband has been stated by scholars as the head of the family in Islamic family system. It is the duty of all family members to obey him in lawful matters. However, Islam has enjoined on all Muslims to manage their affairs (which includes family affairs) by mutual consultation. However, in case of disagreement, the head of the family should be obeyed. The mutual relation of men and women in Islam is that of "friend" and not of master and servant. The Quran says,

"Believers men & women are friends to one another (Wali), they enjoin right, forbid wrong, establish Salat, pay Zakat ,obey Allah & His Prophet" (9 : 71)

This is the last verse of the Quran on man-woman relationship and it shows that duties of men and women are basically same. (Please also refer verses 30 : 21; 3 : 194; 2 : 187; 33 : 35)

Husband alone has the right of sexual intimacy with wife. The wife must not allow any other person to have access to that which is exclusively the husband's right. Wife has similar right in this regard.

Islam has given the correct principles and instructions regarding rights and obligations of husband and wife. These principles, if obeyed in true spirit, would ensure better family and social life.

River

-UCE

I do not really want to argue with you. It seems like you've done alot of soul-searching . However I do believe that most of your questions could be answered if you consider taking a paradigm shift. You should look into Islamic Sufism. It is arguably the deepest philosophy existing on earth (encompassing and integrating all other philosophies). It is quite different from the version of Shia Islam that you are familiar with and it is somewhat dissimilar from mainstream Islam as well.


P.S: Sufism is a mystical path within Islam. It is not a branch of Islam. The whirling (dancing) dervishes is a commonly held stereotype of Sufism. 95% of Sufi orders do not engage in the dancing prayer.

Stephen T-B

River’s posts show us why religious utterances demolish the possibility of there being god or gods.
He gives us a liberal, Westernised interpretation of the Quran which is completely at odds with the interpretation experienced in Iran by UCE (whose opening post was fascinating and insightful) and which drives the harsh, Medieval, misogynistic Fundamentalist form of Islam wherever it is to be found.
For instance, River, how do you feel about those Sharia courts in Nigeria condemning unmarried mothers to be stoned to death for adultery? Do you think it just that before a rapist can be made to suffer the same horrendous penalty, evidence against him must be provided by an eye-witness (how many men, do you suppose, are likely to invite an audience when they are about to commit this particular capital crime) while the victim of a rape will die simply because she’s pregnant?
Do you accept that the the judges and the pious people who carry out the proscribed sentences believe they are fulfiling the will of Allah?
Does this not perplex you?
It should.
Clearly, the Quran is as open to misinterpretation as are the Old and New Testaments of the Christian Bible.
How can that be possible since both are, apparently, the revealed Word of God?
The answer is simple and blindingly obvious: the Islamic, Jewish and Christian God - indeed all gods - are human constructs. We create them in our own image, and it is the very diversity of humankind and the cultures it creates which accounts for the diversity of its gods.
If there were indeed just one God, that is precisely what there would be. It is an absurd idea that an Omnipotent Being which requires human beings to serve it would tolerate the crazy mish-mash of contradictory doctrines which have existed since time immemorial, and still do.
All the different religions, and shades of religious belief and practice point to the inescapable conclusion that gods exist, but only in the human brain.

Athius

I've already said I agree on the fact that Islam doesn't consider women completely equal to men, and I agree with your point on the fact that there are no women Queens and such. What I disagreed with you was when you said god says women are men's toys or are at the level of animals. That is 100% false, I'm sorry maybe that's just your biased interpretation of the Quran but I know enough to be confidently say that what you said is false.

You're going a little too far, although women are definately not at the same level of men when it comes to politics in Muslim countries, women have made considerable advances, there have been I believe 3 female women as presidents in various Muslim countries, and today there are many women in Parliaments and in high political rankings. Your example of Megawati Puteri only shows the fanatic belief of a group of fundamentalists, many Muslims are not upset about having a female president. So yes women definately do get screwed over by men in almost all fields but it's not as bad as some people think it is, it is not 100% to 0%.

Alright sure, although I'm positive there is no religion in the world that can answer all my questions, I'll still take a look at Sufism. I have to wait until next year when I have more time, because as of now I'm very short on time. To be honest even though I've already come to the conclusion that god does not exists I'm still in the process of heavy research and studying. I do this to strengthen my position or reveal any gaps that I might have. By the way (this is not a relevent question and I couldn't PM or email you) if you don't mind I was wondering how old you are, and if you're going to college/university which one? Your location says NY and thats' where I go to college (Columbia U), I was just wondering whether you might be there by any chance.

heh, thank you, I'm flattered.

Quote:

For instance, River, how do you feel about those Sharia courts in Nigeria condemning unmarried mothers to be stoned to death for adultery? Do you think it just that before a rapist can be made to suffer the same horrendous penalty, evidence against him must be provided by an eye-witness (how many men, do you suppose, are likely to invite an audience when they are about to commit this particular capital crime) while the victim of a rape will die simply because she’s pregnant? Do you accept that the the judges and the pious people who carry out the proscribed sentences believe they are fulfiling the will of Allah?

Good point, I was going to mention this but it escaped my mind at the time, this is yet another obvious reason why I called Islam barbaric when compared to most other current religions. Just the idea of stoning to death, one of the worst cruel and unusual punishments in the world shows you what an evil being god must be if this is what he asks us to do.

Quote:

The answer is simple and blindingly obvious: the Islamic, Jewish and Christian God - indeed all gods - are human constructs. We create them in our own image, and it is the very diversity of humankind and the cultures it creates which accounts for the diversity of its gods. If there were indeed just one God, that is precisely what there would be. It is an absurd idea that an Omnipotent Being which requires human beings to serve it would tolerate the crazy mish-mash of contradictory doctrines which have existed since time immemorial, and still do. All the different religions, and shades of religious belief and practice point to the inescapable conclusion that gods exist, but only in the human brain.

Amen

Seraphim

You're going a little too far, although 1. women are definately not at the same level of men when it comes to politics in Muslim countries , women have made considerable advances, 2. there have been I believe 3 female women as presidents in various Muslim countries , and today there are many women in Parliaments and in high political rankings. Your example of Megawati Puteri only shows the fanatic belief of a group of fundamentalists, [/u]3. many Muslims are not upset about having a female president [/u]. So 4. yes women definately do get screwed over by men in almost all fields but it's not as bad as some people think it is, it is not 100% to 0%.

My reply : I'm not gone too far, I just reporting known facts.

1. What level are there for Muslim women, may I ask?

2. Who is this 3 female Presidents and from which countries?

3. This don't seems to be a fact, it seems to be a fiction. Example of overthrowing Benazir Bhutto, plans to murder Megawati and usage of Gloria (whatever the name is) is facts.

4. No shit they been screwed ... you have read about Syariah laws regarding women? You had seen Muslims treatments toward women in Afghan?

In some countries like Sudan, women who were tricked by men into their beds by offering of marriage are stoned to death while the men who are responsible for it goes scout free to do it to another woman. They are only punished IF caught by witnesses and those witnesses MUST be four men who are not related to the accused whatsoever.

There is even laws under Syariah protecting MEN from alleged accusations by WOMEN under Syariah where IF the women cannot prove her claims (that the man she accused of had sex with her etc), then it is HER who is punished. Great law for Rapists.

Athius

1. They are at a level much lower than males, they are definately put down unfairly in Islam and in the Quran but they are not completely denied all rights whatsoever. You said "There is no such practise in Islam about giving voting rights to women" which is false, women do have the right to vote and in are at high ranking parliament positions. That's why I said you were a bit going too far, but I agree with your basic idea that women are unjustly and unfairly treated in Islam. I've mentioned that many times.

2. Hah, thanks for making me look it up, because I found that there were more than 3 actually.

- Begum Khaleda Zia, Prime Minister of Bangladesh (1991-1996)
- Megawati Soekarniputeri, forth President of Indonesia
- A. Benazir Bhutto, recent Prime Minister of Pakistan
- B. Tansu Ciller, Prime Minister of Turkey from 1993 until 1996
- C. Sheikh Hasina Wajed, another Prime Minister of Bangladesh

3. You are generalizing about a whole group solely based on the beliefs and opinions of certain fanatic ulemas and terrorist groups. If you go to more modernized areas of Muslim countries or ask Muslim intellictuals I'm sure you'll see what I mean, sorry there is no way I can actually prove to you the opinion of millions of people.

4. Like I said many times already I completely agree with you, barbaric practices such as stonings or beatings and such are not acceptable and stupid, I'm not trying to prove that women are not being treated unfairly, I'm trying to prove that it is not as horrible or as bad as some make it sound. Islam definately considers women inferior, why? Because the Quran was written by a group of Arab men during the Muhammad era, it is not the word of Allah, it is their word aimed at creating a society dominated by men which was consistent with the philosophy and culture of the Arab world at the time. But they don't completely deny women all rights at everything, Muslim women have made considerable advances in all fields in the modern times.