Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rhea · 04-09-2003, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Yes, Christianity beats Judaism. No religion on Earth has ever had the amount of following as Christianity

So - just checking on a little detail...

Magus, you are Catholic, right? And you consider Jehovah's Witnesses to be True Christian,s right?

And when you say "the amount of following" do you mean as a percentage of the population or as a total number of adherents?

mike_decock · 04-09-2003, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
4. If someone has NEVER heard of Christianity or God, God will judge them based on their thoughts and deeds and what they tried to do.

Just for the sake of argument, let's assume that someone who spent their life trying to maintain their faith lost it due to external influences beyond their control. Even so, they make their best effort to be a good person in thought and deeds.

This could only be due to the fact that they were ignorant of something that would have helped them maintain their beliefs. Will God condemn them for their ignorance?

-Mike...

Flynn McKerrow · 04-09-2003, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
4. If someone has NEVER heard of Christianity or God, God will judge them based on their thoughts and deeds and what they tried to do.

If this is true then don't you think that maybe the idea of teaching them about Jesus is a bad thing?

In particular, what was the goal of the missionaries who arrived in the Americas a few hundred years ago? The natives had never heard of Christianity or the Christian God. Things were fine for them, in the eyes of the Christian God (as you claim), until the missionaries showed up.

Then they learned about Christianity, and they were doomed to either accept it or burn in hell, regardless of how your God would have judged them prior to the arrival of missionaries. Is that correct?

Doesn't this seem a little bit counter-productive?

Flynn McKerrow · 04-09-2003, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhea
Magus, you are Catholic, right?

From what I've read in other threads, I think Magus will be highly insulted by this.

Magus is a Messianic Jew, IIRC.

It would seem that most of his information regarding the RCC comes from the RaptureReady forums of all places.

Queen of Swords · 04-09-2003, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by Magus55
1. unborn babies don't go to hell

Provide biblical justification for this assertion.

2. neither do children before they can understand sin and how to avoid it

Provide biblical justification for this assertion.

3. Mentally deficient aren't held accountable because they can't understand the concept.

Provide biblical justification for this assertion.

4. If someone has NEVER heard of Christianity or God, God will judge them based on their thoughts and deeds and what they tried to do.

Provide biblical justification for this assertion. Especially since Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me."

5. I was raised in a Jewish culture and didn't even know who Jesus was, other than he was a Jew until a few years ago. Thats a really poor excuse.

In other words, anyone who was raised in another culture and taught another religion to the point where they prefer their religion to yours is going to burn in hell forever?

6. If the person spent their whole life denying Jesus, and didn't get to find Him before He died, thats the persons fault for waiting and being stubborn. God gives you plenty of time,

Provide biblical justification for this assertion.

and says don't wait and hold salvation off, because you never know how long you have.

How much time do you think it takes for a person to decide to become a Christian? Five seconds, maybe? Could a car hit you and kill you during those five seconds?

7. No, people born before Jesus were saved the same way people are now - Faith in God. And those people REALLY have no excuse, since God actually interacted and showed his power to those people. Kinda hard to deny the plagues of Egypt in Exodus

Kinda hard to deny that God showed himself to be a child-murderer. Who would want to worship a child-murderer?

He warned the people many many times about judgement for their unending sins

Provide biblical justification for this assertion. Show that God warned the people in Papua New Guinea, Qatar and the Maldive Islands about their sins.

Had the people before the flood not be so stubborn, arrogant and selfish - they might have headed the warnings and not brought destruction on themselves.

Did their children deserve to drown as well?

Nowhere357 · 04-09-2003, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly

But, the argument of Christianity being exclusive and intolerant falls to the earth and is shattered when one realizes that anyone who puts their trust in Christ can be saved. In that sense, Christianity is one of the most inclusive of all religions. No one is left out - it is open to all who will accept Jesus on faith and come back to a relationship with God.
Christians is exclusive, yes. But it is also extremely inclusive.

This is fine, really. The problem is the claim that "belief in jesus" is the ONLY way to heaven, coupled with the xian notion of hell. Any god that punishes souls for eternity, clearly is evil.

I reject evil. Therefore I reject jesus, xianity, and all other manifestations of evil. I think the xian god is weak and pathetic. I've read the bible. These conclusions are obvious, if only you activate your logical reasoning. Try it.

lpetrich · 04-09-2003, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhea
This is when women start covering their heads in churches and vowing to never wear pants?

While men are to be bare-headed.

Actually, while the Book of Leviticus forbids cross-dressing, it does not state what clothing is appropriate for each sex.

Also, in Exodus 20, right after the first set of 10C's, there is a law to the effect that one must not climb up upon an altar, lest one expose oneself to it.

And we find elsewhere that the High Priest is to wear special undies when he goes into the Holy of Holies, so he won't expose himself to that structure.

Suggesting that pants was not common male clothing in the Bible.

Starboy · 04-09-2003, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly
Starboy, one thing you mentioned earlier in this thread was this:

I have been thinking about this and throwing it around from one side of my brain to the other. I agree with you that Christianity is exclusive, for Jesus plainly taught that there is no other way to the Father except through him (John 14:6). The apostles repeated this in Acts 4:12.

But, the argument of Christianity being exclusive and intolerant falls to the earth and is shattered when one realizes that anyone who puts their trust in Christ can be saved. In that sense, Christianity is one of the most inclusive of all religions. No one is left out - it is open to all who will accept Jesus on faith and come back to a relationship with God.

Christians is exclusive, yes. But it is also extremely inclusive.

Kevin [/B]

Kevin, you become intolerant when you cannot appreciate the other point of view and consider it as valid as your own. Your words betray you inability to do this. Alas, you are convicted as charged by your own words. The sad thing is that you are so buried in your own nonsense that you cannot see it.

Starboy

Starboy · 04-09-2003, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
No it doesn't. God is loving and merciful, and isn't gonna exclude someone who can't be held accountable for their sins.

1. unborn babies don't go to hell
2. neither do children before they can understand sin and how to avoid it
3. Mentally deficient aren't held accountable because they can't understand the concept.
4. If someone has NEVER heard of Christianity or God, God will judge them based on their thoughts and deeds and what they tried to do.
5. I was raised in a Jewish culture and didn't even know who Jesus was, other than he was a Jew until a few years ago. Thats a really poor excuse.
6. If the person spent their whole life denying Jesus, and didn't get to find Him before He died, thats the persons fault for waiting and being stubborn. God gives you plenty of time, and says don't wait and hold salvation off, because you never know how long you have.
7. No, people born before Jesus were saved the same way people are now - Faith in God. And those people REALLY have no excuse, since God actually interacted and showed his power to those people. Kinda hard to deny the plagues of Egypt in Exodus or the spliting of the red sea. God was also present before the flood. He warned the people many many times about judgement for their unending sins - all ignored Him except Noah, so God told Noah how to save his family, and Noah listened. Had the people before the flood not be so stubborn, arrogant and selfish - they might have headed the warnings and not brought destruction on themselves.

Arg! More unsubstantiated claims. Have you been to heaven or hell and have you done an audit on the population of heaven or hell? Has anyone done this? NO! You say it without any way for anyone to verify it a all! The amazing part about this is that even the atheists have been so cowed and indoctrinated by their immersion in Christian society that no one calls you on this most basic thing. Who cares what the bible says, who cares how you come to know what you claim, your claims are baseless because no one can check on them. It is the perfect con. Magus55, you are a con man extraordinaire! And society is so screwed up that you and all the others con artists like you can get away with this and no one will stop you. Yet similar fraud in other parts of our society such as in business is prosecuted. Who says there is separation of church and state in this country? By allowing such nonsense to persist the state is directly supporting religion.

Starboy

Opera Nut · 04-09-2003, 08:01 PM

Messianic Jews are an oxymoron, but you can't convince them of that. They hold two opposing views simultaneously quite well.

Logic be damned!

The Jews say that Jews for Jesus is actually a secret recruitment tactic by the Southern Baptists, where they sucker people in by using hebrew words. Knowing the history of Xtians killing, forcibly converting, exiling and generally annihilating Jews, I would not be surprised at anything a Xtian would come up with to fraudulently convert people.

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04-09-2003, 02:17 PM	#25
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Magus55 1. unborn babies don't go to hell Provide biblical justification for this assertion. 2. neither do children before they can understand sin and how to avoid it Provide biblical justification for this assertion. 3. Mentally deficient aren't held accountable because they can't understand the concept. Provide biblical justification for this assertion. 4. If someone has NEVER heard of Christianity or God, God will judge them based on their thoughts and deeds and what they tried to do. Provide biblical justification for this assertion. Especially since Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me." 5. I was raised in a Jewish culture and didn't even know who Jesus was, other than he was a Jew until a few years ago. Thats a really poor excuse. In other words, anyone who was raised in another culture and taught another religion to the point where they prefer their religion to yours is going to burn in hell forever? 6. If the person spent their whole life denying Jesus, and didn't get to find Him before He died, thats the persons fault for waiting and being stubborn. God gives you plenty of time, Provide biblical justification for this assertion. and says don't wait and hold salvation off, because you never know how long you have. How much time do you think it takes for a person to decide to become a Christian? Five seconds, maybe? Could a car hit you and kill you during those five seconds? 7. No, people born before Jesus were saved the same way people are now - Faith in God. And those people REALLY have no excuse, since God actually interacted and showed his power to those people. Kinda hard to deny the plagues of Egypt in Exodus Kinda hard to deny that God showed himself to be a child-murderer. Who would want to worship a child-murderer? He warned the people many many times about judgement for their unending sins Provide biblical justification for this assertion. Show that God warned the people in Papua New Guinea, Qatar and the Maldive Islands about their sins. Had the people before the flood not be so stubborn, arrogant and selfish - they might have headed the warnings and not brought destruction on themselves. Did their children deserve to drown as well?

04-09-2003, 08:01 PM	#30
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	Messianic Jews are an oxymoron, but you can't convince them of that. They hold two opposing views simultaneously quite well. Logic be damned! The Jews say that Jews for Jesus is actually a secret recruitment tactic by the Southern Baptists, where they sucker people in by using hebrew words. Knowing the history of Xtians killing, forcibly converting, exiling and generally annihilating Jews, I would not be surprised at anything a Xtian would come up with to fraudulently convert people.

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