snatchbalance

Brghid,

Yes, and, in my mind, this raises another issue, trust.

The set-up in the OP is based on an experience of my own. I strongly suspect that the woman involved was disposing of the birth control pills that she claimed to be taking. There is no way for a man to know.

Now, before you call me nieve, or stupid, or irresponsible(which, in retrospect, I probably was guilty of all three), this took place after 3 years of a committed relationship. There was a huge level of intimacy at that point. But, emphatically, I did not want children; and I was lead to believe that she didn't either. But, I had no choice in the matter, from my perspective.

Currently, I am involved with a woman who uses an IUD. Now, I trust her completely, but, short of a pelvic exam, I have know way of knowing if she has had it removed or not.

We have mutually decided that I don't need to wear a condom. We are both adult, and are both aware of the risks involved. Yet, she holds the winning hand, automatically, if she should get pregnant. She gets to decide, I go along for the ride.

Oh well, Such is life. And women are the most beautiful creatures in all of scrod's creation.

SB

The Other Michael

Hi Snatchbalance,

Let me assure you from personal experience that that the discomfort from a vasectomy goes away after a couple of days.

But you should have someone to drive you home afterwards. Don't do like a friend of mine who rode his motorcycle home after the procedure!

If you think you may want progeny at a later date you should be able to put a sperm sample on ice somewhere, and I remember at one time reading an article about the medicos trying a small gold valve inserted in the vas, so they could open/shut as needed. I don't know if they've gotten the microsurgery techniques refined enough to be able to surgically reverse a vasectomy.

But a male who doesn't want kids really has no excuse, IMO, to not have a vasectomy if he's going to be having sex with fertile females. The women shouldn't have to shoulder all the burden of contraception, especially when the pill can have some deleterious effects over time.

And if you have the procedure you are pretty much worry free, which might be somewhat libido enhancing.

cheers,
Michael

[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: The Other Michael ]</p>

snatchbalance

TOM,

Yes, I've been thinking of a vasectomy for a while now. Maybe it's time.

SB

MadMordigan

Depending how old you are, you will find it from difficult to next to impossible to get sterilized as a non-parent. I've been sperm free for almost 6 years. Sex has never been better. Good luck man.

The Other Michael

Hi MadMordigan,

I was about 28 at the time, and IIRC I had to request the procedure twice, about 30 days apart, so they could make some claim that I really was serious and had time to back out.

But other than their pro forma attempts to discourage me I really didn't have a problem getting the procedure done. I think it was even covered by my medical insurance.

cheers,
Michael

HelenM

snatchbalance

So, are you 'pro-choice' i.e. the pregnant woman can choose - except if she's the woman you had sex with?

Or are you against women making the choice, across the board?

I don't think it's fair to expect a woman to know before pregnancy, how she'd feel about having a baby, once she is pregnant.

I don't think it's entirely fair to expect a man to make an irreversible decision not to bear children either, fwiw.

Men choose to have sex so they are responsible if a baby results - that's what I think.

love
Helen

[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]</p>

snatchbalance

Helensl,


I'm always pro-choice, for both men and women. Therein lies the crux of the problem, from my perspective. The woman has the choice to continue the pregnacy, or not. The man involved has no say in the matter.

That's way things are, I accept it. But that dosen't make it right.

A vasectomy is sounding better and better all the time.

SB

HelenM

I'm not understanding yet...I thought pro-choice meant it's completely up to the woman.

Are you saying you don't think that's right?

Are you saying that you think other people should have a say in whether she continues it?

Then you aren't really pro-choice, for her, are you?

If you think the man who conceived the baby should have the right to tell the woman to have an abortion, then you aren't any more pro-choice than the people who say no women should have abortions because it's wrong.

You're anti-choice as well, just in a different way.

I don't mean to be offensive but I don't think you realize that the point of pro-choice is that the woman decides. Period. No-one else. Her and her alone.

I think it would be unethical to give any other person - even the one who conceived the child - authority to force upon a woman, a procedure that is unnatural and destructive.

I think coerced abortion is very unethical.

I think it happens a lot though, through verbal intimidation, with young pregnant women told they have to have one "or else!". I think this is very sad and the big downside of making abortion legal and relatively 'easy'.

Forcing anyone to do anything through intimidation is extremely unethical, as far as I'm concerned.

And I think once you say anyone else has rights over whether a pregnant woman has an abortion then you've definitely crossed over to being anti-choice.

I guess I have strong opinions on this, huh?

love
Helen

snatchbalance

Helensl,

Fine, if the woman wants to abort, that is her decision alone. No one can make her carry a child she dosen't want. Also, no one should be able to force her to have a abortion she dosen't want.

However, by the same token, a man should not be forced to care for a child that he didn't agree to have. If two adults make an aggreement not to have children, and one renegs on the agreement, then, in my opinion, the one who reneges on the original agreement bears full responsibility for that decision.

Now, due to basic biological limitations, the only party who has the ability to change its mind is the female. Due to current social norms and legalities, the man can be forced into indenture to the female, no matter what the original agreement was.

So, by current norms, the female can force the male into her servitude. How can you justify the ethics of the female in such a situation?

SB

[ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: snatchbalance ]</p>

HelenM

I'd say that a woman lying to a man so she can get pregnant, when he thinks she won't, is unethical.

But I'm not sure I'd ever protest that she can get him to pay child support, if that's what you are talking about by 'servitude'.

I'd say, why didn't he stop to assess how trustworthy she was, before he had sex with her, risking conception?

I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for the man who has to pay child support for a child he fathered, I guess. I mean, he made a choice...

It's also hard for me to think that a man would have the attitude of "Even if this is technically my children I don't care - I was only in it for the sex". I mean, we're talking about a real child here, right? Who is going to grow up and find out eventually that his biological father wanted nothing to do with him.

I believe in ethical systems where people are held responsible for their choices. I'd said that expecting financial provision from a man who fathered a child is only reasonable, from that point of view. On an ethical basis I'd expect more than that from him.

The whole 'children will ruin my life' mentality is not something I can grasp.

Although, societally, that probably is true for some young underprivileged women. But I see that as as much a societal problem as an individual one.

love
Helen