niggle

Having read several "Why are agnostics such cowards" type threds, I believe that immaterial bickering amongst ourselves about issues that don't matter.

Focus on core issues:

1. Maintain seperation of church and state.
2. gain general respect in society.
3. Keep science in the classroom.

Ignore "more atheist than thou" conversations. They're worthless and non-productive.

NearNihil Experience

"Come on people, be serious! This is the reason we're losing out to the fundamentalists. If you want to preserve the seperation of church and state we have to stop bitching on these boards about how horrible the fundies are, and actually get out there and do something! So I'll ask you all again, does anyone have any ideas about how we could mobilize our constituency?"- D.P

I still stand by my reply. In all seriousness sneakyness works. Grand global conspiricies to distract the average Joe. Pouring sugar in people's ears has always worked for one with means and an end. All people, even the most individually willful, have the basic human need to identify above the crowd, be part of something bigger, and allow someone to have custody over their busy-sometimes-too-busy lives. Take advantage. Find common roots between many groups and exploit(not in a personal gain way). Media saturation, character assassination, etc.

If people want an open atheist, agnostic, or free thinker elected....the vile game is ripe for play...just gotta put aside idealistic notions that one of those guys(the elected) is just going to make us unpopular folks his\her pet project. No, just like oil, tobacco, guns and gas, we need to find a posterboy\girl and plug and hype and train them in the game of representation and bullshiting.

BTW, I don't really think we have much of a constituency. We do. We are about 10-15% of the population, and many of us are in very influential positions. We are however scattered. Some sort of communication would be necessary and some consolidation. Herding cats problem arises here. But, Give people a common enemy. Bush has mobilized more people against him than for him. Play this sort of thing up. Never pass up an opportunity to discredit the other side, especially toward fence sitters. Thats how you win converts, you must however be delicate as not to offend dangling sensabilities. Concentrate in cities and around colleges and Universities. Thats where the majority of us are. Though you will find many in rural coal mines and on small farms and in small towns...even down south.

Heres my small rant....We are a small group. We do however have mainstream alies. NOW, the ACLU, and I think even the Unitarians might lend a hand if properly cajoled. Since reasonable thinkers and fair constitutional practicers are the minority, one goal is to fight tooth and nail against Democracy. Don't mistake Democracy for freedom...they are not synonamous. And I most certainly do not want to fight to squash freedom of conscience or practice. I'm talking about Tyranny of the Masses. This country was founded on the principles that the Republic, as represented by the Constitution, is to be held above all...the majority, the elected and the army. Today's problem is that many representives are reinterpreting law and the Constitution through the whims of the majority...the majority being stupid, er, conservative, ignorant, and uninformed.

take advantage. For everyone's good.

BibleBelted

To bring the non-fundy (but apathetic or misinformed) general citizenry around, focus on getting the term "Christian Reconstructionist" into the mainstream vocabulary. Use it in conversation, on other message boards - we're preaching to the choir here - and in our letters to the editors. Point out the lies people like D. James Kennedy and David Barton tell to advance an agenda which is demonstrably un-American.

The reason for this is to draw a distinction, and ultimately drive a wedge, between these neo-fascists and mainstream Christians and others who might just like to think of themselves as patriotic.

The Recons have seduced conservative America by not only thumping the Bible, but also by wrapping themselves in Old Glory. Point out that it is inconsistent with conservative values to turn back the clock on the American Revolution by surrendering to religious tyranny even if it's not that bad right now. Their success has been due to a stealth campaign that has been flying under the radar of of normal people who I'm convinced still make up a vast majority in this country. Now that that they've managed to grab a little power with their grass-roots disinformation campaign, they are starting to play the bully.

We don't, in my opinion, need to stress atheist rights - just speak out, and stand up against, religious intolerance and the dishonest promotion of fundamentalist ignorance.

Educate yourself about the goofiness of Creation Science and Reconstructionist historical revisionism (they actually accuse normal historians of "purging" Jesus from our history books) and be prepared to spell out what is wrong with it and why you oppose it.

Speak out against your local radio Brownshirt (in your local paper and conversations, you'll never get anywhere taking them on on their own turf). We need to get the message out about just how wrong these people are. They are trying to mainstream fringe beliefs - we need to marginalize them and chase them back under the rocks from which they crawled.

Most importantly, remember that most people are just going along with them because they are uneducated, or miseducated about the extreme nature of their agenda. Most halfway objective people will not be that difficult to persuade if you are prepared, so try to remain cordial; however, should you find yourself face to face with a true Christian fascist - remember these people rely on their bullying tactics to "win" arguments.

Bullies don't respond to tolerance and rational discussion, they feed off it. Bullies respond to being punched in the nose - figuratively speaking, of course.

Shake

This last point here is subtle, yet good. Seeing as how the 'A'-word still has a negative connotation (correctly or not), it'll be easier to erase that once we've established greater tolerance of all religious ideas.

We need to remember that our "wins" will not come all at once. We've got to take steps, know which battles we need to fight, and which ones we can win. I'm not saying to give up on the big fights, because win or lose, they do draw attention to the issues (which as you've stated, many are oblivious to), and any rationally-minded fence-sitters will hopefully see through the sneaky tactics used by religious groups.

The media can be a big help, or they can expose weaknesses. They are a double-edged sword, to be used carefully and skillfully by those who know how.

Don't underestimate the power of a letter-to-the-editor! Well-written pieces will serve to educate and expose injustices when they are happening right under our noses. IMO, we're not even necessarily looking for (de-)converts ... we'd just like to given some consideration and not have our rights trampled. Remember that Barry Lynn of AU is a minister! I think many atheists would just like the same tolerance that we show theists to be returned.

capsaicin67

I agree that it's an important question. It's re-visited frequently as well it should be.

We are behind in numbers of decisive, committed constituents. We own few if any major media outlets. We are not organizing and buying properties for the overt purpose of supporting freethought [accumulating capital/wealth/resources]. We have neither of the 2 dominant political parties aligning with us. We control few if any major corporations. So on and so forth.

I think it's fine and well that we continue to wage legal battles as the need arises. But we are losing on the capital and cultural fronts of the war. And since the fundies could not win legally based on what the core American script was prior, they are trying to change the script and thus the future interpretation of the law . IMO.

We aren't going to accumulate capital without constituents, and we aren't going to accumulate constituents without community supports.

Most of the fencesitters that I know are there not because they simply aren't sure, nor that they haven't heard aggressive or effective argumentation in favor of freethought. Some are, but not most. *Most* are there because they fear a stiff social penalty for being "out" and see little benefit identifying openly as any flavor of nonbeliever, even nonreligious. Overtly that is. There are few acknowledged and accepted community freethought organizations, and those that exist are fairly rudimentary and/or anemic. The people I know need jobs and babysitters, and so far being a freethinker doesn't help them with that [*usually*]. Most people I know aren't interested in academic debates about metaphysics. They go on something a whole lot simpler, right or wrong.

So I think that one of the most important things we can do is grow the future constituency. It is critical I think. We need to facilitate bright, ambitious, enthusiastic young people to understand what's going on and why it's important and that it can be a good lifestyle. There is a lot that will need to be done, and they are the future. Every major campus should have an active freethought support group. And then the minor ones. Every state should. And as they grow, build from there. I'm not saying that's easy, mind you, but I believe it is the primary task after holding the legal defensive line.

University students are the people that will care enough to help build it and are most likely to question and think deeply. We should be visible and available when they are ready to engage with a freethought community. Joe/Jane Lunchbox are not going to be the group easiest to tap into intellectually, let alone emotionally. Thus I think campuses are the key. It's where people make decisions that alter their idenitities and self-concepts in the future. It's where professionals and movers and shakers come from [not all, but a lot].

Community is when you can say you belong to a collective in your city or town and the rest of the citizens generally feel that it's ok that you belong, or that it's not ok to harass you. There are some good 1:1 transformations that take place for individuals that are out, but if a witchhunt starts, most neighbors would sell us out in a heartbeat despite their comfort with us in private, IMO. What changes this, and makes people stand up and be counted, is when they see an organization within their community that is visible and constructively vocal that protects its own and does "good" things for all. I think that takes on a whole other level of importance in the eyes of the culture, and I think it sticks a bit more.

Community will lead to the other important "c's":

capital, communication, constituents, culture and ultimately Congress and the courts.

But without community, freethought will have all the power and relevance of the Flat Earth Society. IMHO.

Shake

Well, as far as community goes, check out this thread. Out of all of us here, and the supposed millions of atheists in the country, the fact that there are only 3,127 folks signed up for Atheist Meetups is really sad. It's a nice start, but it's got to grow. I've only been to one so far, but I found it to help me feel more confident about being an atheist and more at ease about being out about it.

As you've implied capsaicin67, we're not going to get Congressional influence all at once. We've got to start locally and work our way bigger and higher. Meetup is a good way to mobilize in your locality. One would think in some of the larger cities that there would potentially be hundreds of atheists!

CT, I don't think you need to call it being sneaky. You'd just be being a good politician! Avoid the questions that directly ask about your own religious views, and tactfully point out why separation of church and state is actually good for both sides! OK, so maybe it is sneaky. But I see where you're going. If you were running for office, you would say things like, "My own religious views are not what's important here. What is important is <issue>."

To paraphrase a quote I once heard, "Diplomacy is politely getting the other guy to accept your point of view."

capsaicin67

I agree with both of your major points, Shake.

Now that the "movement" has the opportunity to grow, why doesn't it grow? I would say that prior to the advent of the internet, organized, visible freethought community was far less than today. The UU church was probably the most common, effective, safehouse for freethinkers and they have many of the same problems that a dedicated freethought group now has: they are relatively unknown, uncomfortable with and poor at marketing and outreach, generationally top-heavy, anemic organizationally and low on resources etc.

And I also agree that strategizing, and diplomacy, to be effective at moving forward are gnerally the best routes. We *do* have to live with others in a diverse society, and change occurs rarely in a total and direct manner. Incremental change is less dramatic and satisfying in the short-term, but I think it's how things really move ahead. There can be big spurts, but we are starting from some pretty humble beginnings. You can't be too obnoxious, aggressive, or pushy until you have some momentum and numbers built up usually.

I think we should think and discuss a lot more with respect to why so few people see involvement in and dedication to a freethought community in their area or region as not worth the trouble, or not of interest? That seems the crux of the matter to me.

In the meantime, those of us that are ready can start as small as getting involved with the orgs in our region, the ambitious can start them if necessary, and the least ambitious can "subscribe to" or support advocacy and support groups. Their are anumber of levels one can be involved at. I personally think that the "freethought movement" needs some serious, serious marketeers and strategizers to work on some of the outreach and development issues. But until then, I think the most basic level of support that will make a difference is to support the legal defense of our rights and support campus outreach and regional support organizations...... Others are bound to have good ideas that I'm not thinking of, but I think that these goals look like the "leverage points" in our cultural and organizational logjam. IMHO.

marylandnaturegirl

The next International Atheists Meetup day is
in one week (next Tuesday at 7pm)
RSVP at
http://www.atheists.meetup.com


There are 3 agenda discussion items.

One item (which I submitted) was whether or not

people would be interested in attending or organizing a Separation of Church and State Rally on WASH DC.

This would be kind of like the Godless March except this would be for ANYONE that supports keeping Church and State separate which includes both religious and non religious supporters.


If the Godless March could get over 3,000 I think that a

Separation of Church and State Rally could get perhaps 10,000?


Well, discuss it at your local atheists meetups on Tuesday and get back to us as how that goes.


Also, there is now another meetup someone started called

http://www.freedomofreligion.com and it is on a Saturday each month.