DMB

Where does the concept of the Holy Ghost originate? Did it already exist before xianity? I have to say I have never really understood the concept of the Trinity nor why it was considered a good idea by the fathers of the church. As far as I do understand, there appear to be differences in interpretation between the Orthodox and the Western churches. Can someone enlighten me?

lpetrich

The "Holy Spirit" or "Holy Ghost" first appears in the Book of Matthew. That may be Matthew's euphemism for "Spirit of God", a phrase used elsewhere; Matthew may be following in the footsteps of much Jewish tradition by not referring to God directly.

Consistent with this is how Matthew uses the phrase "Kingdom of Heaven" rather than "Kingdom of God", which the other Gospel writers use.

As to the Trinity, it may be a way of trying to create a coherent theology from the New Testament, which, it must be said, is rather hard to do.

doodad

The Spirit of God is referenced in Job 33:4, which is part of the OT. Isiah 48:16 also references "the Lord God and his Spirit'.

To me the terms "Holy Ghost", "Holy Spirit", and "the Spirit of God" are synonomous. Fundamentalist Christians tend to associate the Holy Spirit with Jesus and with the New Testament.

The Holy Trinity, as defined circa 325 AD during the rule of Constantine the Great, was an attempt to reconcile the idea that Christianity was monotheistic (one God) with the concept that there was three divine entities, the Holy Spirit, Jesus the Son, and God the Father. The resulting definition is known as the "orthodox Holy Trinity" and has been a topic of debate ever since. "Orthodox" is defined in terms of the views of the church of Rome that existed at that time. There are evangelical Christian theologians who view modalism, or the concept that Jesus is God, as the "orthodox" view or definition of the Trinity. [ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: doodad ]

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: doodad ]</p>

CX

I'm afraid that's incorrect. The council of Nicaea in 325 served only to define the essential nature of Jesus ("fully god and fully man") and to anathematize the popular heresy of Arianism. It was the latter, in fact, that prompted Constantine to convene the council in the first place. The doctrine of the Trinity was neither established nor discussed at CoN as far as we know. It certainly marks an important point in the development of the trinitarian doctrine, but the Holy Spirit isn't offically added to the godhead until sometime later.

doodad

Thak you for the correction. In stating circa 325 AD I was intending to give reference to the era of Constantine as Emperor of Rome, and wasn't trying to affix a particular date to the event.

Iasion

Greetings all,

A quick text search (in English) for "Holy Spirit" or "Holy Ghost" gives many hits even before the Gospels - of course, these uses may not mean the same thing, and may not be the same terms in the original language.


Isaiah :
{63:10} But they rebelled, and grieved his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] himself fought against them. {63:11} Then he remembered the days of old, Moses [and] his people, [saying], Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit in the midst of them?


Psalms :
{51:11} Cast me not away from thy presence; And take not thy holy Spirit from me.


Widsom of Solomon, 9 :
[17] Who has learned thy counsel, unless thou hast given wisdom and sent thy holy Spirit from on high?


The Pauline and pseudo-Pauline epistles have a dozen references or so, e.g. -
Rom.5:5 and hope doesn't disappoint us, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.


Philo has a few uses, e.g. -
Moses II, 50 (291) For when he was now on the point of being taken away, and was standing at the very starting-place, as it were, that he might fly away and complete his journey to heaven, he was once more inspired and filled with the Holy Spirit, and while still alive, he prophesied admirably what should happen to himself after his death


1 Clement has several uses, e.g. -
Thus a profound and abundant peace was given to you all, and you had an insatiable desire for doing good, while a full outpouring of the Holy Spirit was upon you all.


1 Peter has 1 use :
1:12To them it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to you, did they minister these things, which now have been announced to you through those who preached the Gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent out from
heaven;


4 Ezra has 1 use :
[14.22] If then I have found favor before thee, send the Holy Spirit into me, and I will write everything that has happened in the world from the beginning, the things which were written in thy law, that men may be able to find the path, and that those who wish to live in the last days may live.


The Ascension of Isaiah has several uses, e.g. -
Ch5.14. And when Isaiah was being sawn in sunder, he neither cried aloud nor wept, but his lips spake with the Holy Spirit until he was sawn in twain.


After that, nearly every Christian writing from the 2nd century onwards uses the phrase (over 6000 hits in over 400 documents before 700AD).


I leave it to others to exegise the meaning.


Quentin David Jones

[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: Iasion ]</p>

Tercel

Well the Jews had always believed that God's spirit inspired their prophets. They doubtless understood the spirit to be completely synonymous with God. The early Christians, due to their experiences developed ideas and teachings which eventually lead to the Spirit being established as a member of the Trinity.

The writers of the Bible sometimes speak as if Jesus and God and the Spirit are the same being and at other times they distinguish them. The doctrine of the Trinity attempts to reconcile these things by saying that at the core these three share the same essence, but they are distinct persons. It was considered a "good idea" because it's the only way to explain the Biblical statements on the subject.

The Nicene Creed was formulated by two universal church councils. As originally written (well as translated anyway) it says that:
"...the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified."

The Catholic Church (and hence the Protestants by inheritance) later added the words "and the son" after "proceeds from the Father" without having a universal council (ie without consulting the Orthodox Church). The Orthodox reject the insertion on the basis that 1. they weren't asked, and you shouldn't go around changing things formulated by universal councils without a universal council and 2. They claim the insertion is theologically incorrect.

idiom

The concept of the trinity appears in hebrew at the beginning of Genesis. It takes a few more chapters for it to become apparent in english. The Holy Spirit is apparent in english very early.

This being so it would date the first mention to Moses a bit after the reign of Ramasses II.

DMB

Thank you very much for the answers so far.

In my youth, although never a xian, I was obliged to learn the Apostles' Creed. If I remember it correctly, it said that Jesus was "conceived by the Holy Ghost". I don't know what this means. Was it to avoid any idea that g the f might have been sexually involved?

Does anyone here have a sense of what the Holy Ghost is? Does it mean that whenever xians believe that they are getting messages from god, it must be via the HG? It almost looks as though the HG is a sort of super PA for g the f.

I had vaguely supposed that the HG was elevated to being a member of the trinity once Jesus was decided to be divine, because three was a significant number.

lpetrich

True, "elohim" is plural, but there is no indication of the total number.

The "Spirit of God" (or "God's breath"), yes. As I'd pointed out earlier, Matthew may have wanted to create a euphemism for that term that did not directly mention God.