Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 02-28-2002, 03:48 PM

<a href="http://www.cesnur.org/2002/fr_feb.htm" target="_blank">Under Suspicion: Faith in France</a>

Pat Robertson's ACLJ is there to protect them:

Quote:

"In my opinion, the goal of this law is the completion of the French Revolution-- the eradication of religion in the life of the public in France and the opening of the door for a purely secular society," says Joel Thorton, of the European Center for Law and Justice based in Strasbourg, France. The ECLJ is the international arm of the Virginia-based American Center for Law and Justice.

But:

Quote:

Meanwhile, French and European lawmakers are fueled by growing public resentment against a perceived intrusion by American religious groups.

"One person even suggested that it `was America's new way of invading Europe and exercising an imperial influence in Europe through the cults and evangelical churches," says Easterman.

"Europe is very concerned about protecting its democracies," states Picard. "We are fully aware that behind all these prominent religious movements, 90 percent of which comes from the United States, there are hidden agendas that are against the democracies."

The Resistance · 02-28-2002, 07:20 PM

I think it's hilarious that France is worried that they need to defend democracy against US religious groups. Against France sees things a little more clearly than the average American.

scombrid · 03-01-2002, 05:12 AM

Great, so now when I go abroad I'll need wear a bag over my head and a sign on my back stating "I'm not an American proselytizing ass". They really get the worst of the US over there don't they. I was speaking to someone last night that went to teach English in Switzerland. The kids there said she looked funny. Pressing to find out, she eventually got them to tell her why they found her so strange. They said that she didn't look American. American girls should look like Brittany Spears

. So that's the European picture of the US, proselytizing Brittany Spears clones. Great. I guess they expect males to be belching beer-gutted mullet-heads.

[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: scombrid ]</p>

hezekiah jones · 03-01-2002, 01:21 PM

Quote:

"In my opinion, the goal of this law is the completion of the French Revolution-- the eradication of religion in the life of the public in France and the opening of the door for a purely secular society," says [Pat Robertson's butt-boy].

Formidable!

Answerer · 03-01-2002, 06:09 PM

Anyway, I don't the extremists in the state will give up so easily. They will rather bring down the whole government than shutting down their church.

Sakpo · 03-02-2002, 12:10 AM

I'm no fan of Charismatic churches (there were some grade A moron Charismatics at my high school who really pissed me off with their inane babblings) but I never like seeing religious freedom interfered with without good grounds and in an overly stringent manner. In this case it appears the nutjob's freedoms are not being interfered with too drastically as they may continue to worship, gather, etc etc. It just looks like a municipal zoning/advertisement issue really. It's hilarious how they have Pastor Whatshisname going on about not being scared of the bastille. I seriously doubt any Western European government would be dumb enough to make the political mistake of jailing non violent/non seriously criminal religious leaders for any real amount of time.
I wouldn't be suprised if they're lying about any chance of him being imprisoned at all. If charges are being brought against him I doubt it could be done retroactivly for past infractions before they were made illegal (though I'm not familiar with French law so perhaps I'm wrong). It would make a lot more sense for the French gov. to use large fines to keep them in order.

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: Sakpo ]</p>

Toto · 03-02-2002, 11:10 AM

As a civil libertarian, I don't like the image of government snoops checking up on religious groups. But I have have often thought that if religious were subject to the same anti-fraud provisions as non-religious groups, a lot of them would have to shut down.

sullster · 03-02-2002, 12:06 PM

France is a strange country. They are convinced of their cultural uniqueness and feel that it is always being threatened, especially by American culture. Symbols of the dreaded American cultural invasion run from McDonald's to Disney and now to evangelists. It is a very "French thing" to raise their blood pressure over such things and has been done for years.

The French always rant about democracy, but since the moment the Revolution started cutting off heads, democracy has had a spotty record. Also, though the catholic church in France has become a virtual prisoner of the state, it commands enough linkage to French culture to have a hand in wanting to stop the evangelical protestants.

Part of me likes the idea of a crack-down on religious groups, but a more reasoned part says that it against a free society to do so. I admire the American ideal of free expression and find this French law to be abhorent, even though it puts me with the snake-pit of Robertson lawyers. That is ugly.

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02-28-2002, 07:20 PM	#2
The Resistance Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 571	I think it's hilarious that France is worried that they need to defend democracy against US religious groups. Against France sees things a little more clearly than the average American.

03-01-2002, 05:12 AM	#3
scombrid Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Central Florida Posts: 2,759	Great, so now when I go abroad I'll need wear a bag over my head and a sign on my back stating "I'm not an American proselytizing ass". They really get the worst of the US over there don't they. I was speaking to someone last night that went to teach English in Switzerland. The kids there said she looked funny. Pressing to find out, she eventually got them to tell her why they found her so strange. They said that she didn't look American. American girls should look like Brittany Spears . So that's the European picture of the US, proselytizing Brittany Spears clones. Great. I guess they expect males to be belching beer-gutted mullet-heads. [ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: scombrid ]</p>

03-01-2002, 06:09 PM	#5
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	Anyway, I don't the extremists in the state will give up so easily. They will rather bring down the whole government than shutting down their church.

03-02-2002, 12:10 AM	#6
Sakpo Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Pacific Northwest (illegally occupied indigenous l Posts: 7,716	I'm no fan of Charismatic churches (there were some grade A moron Charismatics at my high school who really pissed me off with their inane babblings) but I never like seeing religious freedom interfered with without good grounds and in an overly stringent manner. In this case it appears the nutjob's freedoms are not being interfered with too drastically as they may continue to worship, gather, etc etc. It just looks like a municipal zoning/advertisement issue really. It's hilarious how they have Pastor Whatshisname going on about not being scared of the bastille. I seriously doubt any Western European government would be dumb enough to make the political mistake of jailing non violent/non seriously criminal religious leaders for any real amount of time. I wouldn't be suprised if they're lying about any chance of him being imprisoned at all. If charges are being brought against him I doubt it could be done retroactivly for past infractions before they were made illegal (though I'm not familiar with French law so perhaps I'm wrong). It would make a lot more sense for the French gov. to use large fines to keep them in order. [ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: Sakpo ]</p>

03-02-2002, 11:10 AM	#7
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	As a civil libertarian, I don't like the image of government snoops checking up on religious groups. But I have have often thought that if religious were subject to the same anti-fraud provisions as non-religious groups, a lot of them would have to shut down.

03-02-2002, 12:06 PM	#8
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	France is a strange country. They are convinced of their cultural uniqueness and feel that it is always being threatened, especially by American culture. Symbols of the dreaded American cultural invasion run from McDonald's to Disney and now to evangelists. It is a very "French thing" to raise their blood pressure over such things and has been done for years. The French always rant about democracy, but since the moment the Revolution started cutting off heads, democracy has had a spotty record. Also, though the catholic church in France has become a virtual prisoner of the state, it commands enough linkage to French culture to have a hand in wanting to stop the evangelical protestants. Part of me likes the idea of a crack-down on religious groups, but a more reasoned part says that it against a free society to do so. I admire the American ideal of free expression and find this French law to be abhorent, even though it puts me with the snake-pit of Robertson lawyers. That is ugly.

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