NOGO

Here is another proof of the end-of-the-world belief of early Christians.

Here Peter explain the fact that Christians speak in tongues.

Essentially he is saying (through an OT quote) that in the last days God will pour out his spirit and people will speak in tongues ...

Geoff Hudson

What are the "tongues"? They are not in Joel.

Geoff

YHWHtruth

That is referring to the Last Days of the Jewish System of Things.

There is no need for speaking in tongues today.

Max

NOGO

Nonesense!

You should read the first post in this thread to get a clear idea of the issue.

Here is another example
1 Cor 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

the word ages above is "aion" in Greek and is the same word used in GMt24:3 and GMt13:39-40.

Now GMt13:39-40 is definitely not the end of the Jewish state.
Neither is GMt24.

YHWHtruth

You guess wrong.

What is unclear about my statement? I have articulated my point enough (above), and I will not go on and on about a matter that has already been discussed.

This is a non sequitur, pure and simple. NOGO also assumes that which he has yet to prove. NOGO fails to provide precise examples so we can evaluate his conclusion, and determine if his assumptions are contingent upon anything.

MAX

YHWHtruth

As I stated before on earlier posts:

The Last Days of the Jewish System of Things

Less than three and a half years before the non-Jews became part of the Christian congregation, God’s spirit was poured out on faithful Jewish disciples of Jesus Christ. At that time Peter explained that this was in fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy, saying: “‘And in the last days,’ God says, ‘I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh ._._. And I will give portents in heaven above and signs on earth below, blood and fire and smoke mist; the sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and illustrious day of Jehovah arrives.’” (Ac 2:16-20) In this case “the last days” preceded “the great and illustrious day of Jehovah,” which “day” apparently brought “the last days” to their conclusion. (Compare Zep 1:14-18; Mal 4:5; Mt 11:13,_14. Since Peter addressed natural Jews and Jewish proselytes, his words must have had particular reference to them and evidently indicated that they were living in “the last days” of the then-existing Jewish system of things with its center of worship at Jerusalem. Earlier, Christ Jesus himself had foretold the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple (Lu 19:41-44; 21:5,_6), which occurred in 70_C.E.

It must have been also with reference to the end of the Jewish system of things that Christ Jesus was spoken of as appearing and carrying on his activity “at the end of the times” or “at the end of these days.” (1Pe 1:20,_21; Heb 1:1,_2) This is confirmed by the words of Hebrews 9:26: “But now he [Jesus] has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself.”

MAX

YHWHtruth

The miraculous gift of tongues attended the outpouring of God’s spirit at Pentecost, 33_C.E. The approximately 120 disciples assembled in an upper room (possibly near the temple) were thereby enabled to speak about “the magnificent things of God” in the native tongues of the Jews and proselytes who had come to Jerusalem from faraway places for the observance of the festival. This fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy proved that God was using the new Christian congregation and no longer the Jewish congregation. In order to receive the free gift of the holy spirit, the Jews and proselytes had to repent and be baptized in Jesus’ name. Ac 1:13-15; 2:1-47.

The gift of tongues proved very helpful to first-century Christians in preaching to those who spoke other languages. It was actually a sign to unbelievers. However, Paul, in writing to the Christian congregation at Corinth, directed that when meeting together, not all should speak in tongues, as strangers and unbelievers entering and not understanding would conclude that they were mad. He also recommended that the speaking in tongues “be limited to two or three at the most, and in turns.” However, if no one could translate, then the person speaking in a tongue was to remain silent in the congregation, speaking to himself and to God. (1Co 14:22-33) If no translating took place, his speaking in a tongue would not result in upbuilding others, for no one would listen to his speech because it would be meaningless to those unable to understand it. 1Co 14:2,_4.

If the person speaking in a tongue was unable to translate, then he did not understand what he himself was saying nor would others who were not familiar with that tongue, or language. Hence, Paul encouraged those having the gift of tongues to pray that they might also translate and thereby edify all listeners. From the foregoing, it can readily be seen why Paul, under inspiration, ranked speaking in tongues as a lesser gift and pointed out that in a congregation he would rather speak five words with his mind (understanding) than 10,000 words in a tongue.

Now do you see why there is no need for speaking in "tongues" today?

Max

ScottDNV21

Geoff, you're right. The tongues themselves are not mentioned in Joel, but that's a moot point. Peter was pointing to the fact that the disciples were speaking in the various languages of the Eastern Mediterranean (with no prior knowledge of those languages) as evidence that God's Spirit was with the new sect of Jews, later known as Christians.

So, although glossolalia is not mentioned in Joel, that's irrelevant, because Peter is not making that claim. Rather, he is pointing to the tongues as the evidence that Joel's prophecy is being fulfilled.

Toto

Except that Joel's prophecy was not fulfilled.

Joel 2: 1 Blow the trumpet in Zion;
sound the alarm on my holy hill.
Let all who live in the land tremble,
for the day of the LORD is coming.
It is close at hand-
2 a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and blackness.
Like dawn spreading across the mountains
a large and mighty army comes,
such as never was of old
nor ever will be in ages to come.

3 Before them fire devours,
behind them a flame blazes.
Before them the land is like the garden of Eden,
behind them, a desert waste-
nothing escapes them.
4 They have the appearance of horses;
they gallop along like cavalry.
5 With a noise like that of chariots
they leap over the mountaintops,
like a crackling fire consuming stubble,
like a mighty army drawn up for battle.

6 At the sight of them, nations are in anguish;
every face turns pale.
7 They charge like warriors;
they scale walls like soldiers.
They all march in line,
not swerving from their course.
8 They do not jostle each other;
each marches straight ahead.
They plunge through defenses
without breaking ranks.
9 They rush upon the city;
they run along the wall.
They climb into the houses;
like thieves they enter through the windows.

10 Before them the earth shakes,
the sky trembles,
the sun and moon are darkened,
and the stars no longer shine.
11 The LORD thunders
at the head of his army;
his forces are beyond number,
and mighty are those who obey his command.
The day of the LORD is great;
it is dreadful.
Who can endure it?

This hasn't happened yet.

28 "And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
30 I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD .

That great and dreadful day that Christians have been waiting for for about 2000 years - it's still not here. Pointing out that those early Christians were waiting for it does not lend credibility to their story.

And speaking in tongues is just babbling nonsense, of no help to the apostles in their missionary work. That's why there is no need for it today.

ScottDNV21

Toto,

I think it might be useful to understand, in this context, the four different types of rabbinical interpretation of Old Testamet passages, and how a New Testament Jewish Christian might apply those interpretations.

The first type is known as a "pshat", or literal fulfillment of a literal prophecy. An example would be a prophecy saying, "On January 25, John is going to win the lottery." Then, on January 25, John wins the lottery. Literal prediction, literal fulfillment (c.f., Micah 5:2 with Matthew 2:11).

The second type is known as a "remez", or the allegorical, typical comparison of a prophecy with its own literal fulfillment to another scenario. For example, Hosea 11:1 speaks of God calling Israel out of Egypt, and then Matthew 2:15 applies this passage to Jesus coming out of Egypt. This is not a literal "pshat" fulfillment, but more of a typology. Jesus coming out of Egypt is comparable to Israel coming out of Egypt in the Exodus.

The third type is the "drash", or a literal prophecy with application. Here, an allusion is made to a literal prophecy in order to make another event's importance understandable. For example, Joel 2 speaks of an end-times outpouring of God's Spirit on "all flesh". This is the one similarity between Joel 2 and Acts 2, and all similarities end there. Peter does not say that Acts 2 is the literal fulfillment of Joel 2, but that the phenomenon of Acts 2 is comparable to Joel 2. In other words, this is an example of God imparting his Spirit in a manner similar to what will occur when Joel 2 is fulfilled.

So while you are right that Acts 2 does not fulfill Joel 2 in the literal sense, Peter's allusion to Joel 2 is compatible with an accepted rabbinical interpretation of Old Testament passages.

Just for reference, the fourth type, or "sod", is a "hidden" application of a literal prophecy.