Sandslice

I actually asked a few xians, including my mom, this question.

"Is the Crucifix [for any that don't know, this is an icon of the crucified Jesus that is typically displayed in xian churches] a graven image? It seems like it... if Jesus ascended into heaven, then an icon of him would be a graven image, like in the Ten Commandments."

By the way. 4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them

From Exodus 20(KJV.)

If that man really did ascend into heaven, then a crucifix IS a graven image, and all these churches are violating one of the most tantamount of their own commandments... but if it's not a likeness of something that *is* in heaven, then Jesus didn't ascend, and we know where that goes.

Thoughts?

Amos

Nono, you've got it all wrong. That image hanging there is the ego identity (persona) he left behind. How else could he possibly rise and be of one mind with the father in heaven?

We are to ponder the image, and the wounds , and kind of place ourselves upon it and and so have our senses pierced that we may rise with him . . . lest we die at the foot of the cross while burning there with the desire to rise with him.

You are tinking protestant theology which is like driving on the wrong side of the raod while thinking the others are all going the wrong way.

Francis Mortyn

Certainly a crucifix is "a graven image" as is referred to in the Ten Commandments but those Commandments are part of the old law which was allegedly given to the Jews to apply only among their closed circle. Christians are not obligated to anything more than Jesus' two laws: 1, Honor God, 2, Love thy neighbor. Muslims, however, take that prohibition very strictly and you see no images of any natural object (except the Moon and Venus) in Islam. (Consider Persian art.) As to those Ten Commandments, even the Bible offers three different versions of what they are and Christians who take them as authoritative are acting in ignorance. It is now known that all those Commandments are in the Egyptian Books of the Dead compiled thousands of years before the life of Ahmose a.k.a. Moishe a.k.a. Moses, if he existed at all. Note that in his "Guide to the Bible" Isaac Asimov quite correctly ignores those Ten Commandments; they have no serious significance in history or basic religion.
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echidna

The choice of the crucifix is an interesting one. One might liken it to bowing down in homage to a guillotine or the gallows or an electric chair. There are small groups within Christianity which would prefer to replace such a morbid & bloodthirsty image with something more positive.

Sandslice

Amos: I'm not thinking "Protestant" theology here. Only an empirical observation of churches relative to what's written in the book. Of course, my case against Mary statues and other "foci" of worship (hey, even REAL sorcerers need spell foci!) applies in the case of Catholics.

Francis: I surrender the point that fundies are hotbeds of ignorance. At least, the ones that argue that American laws should be based on those magical "Law Stones of Charlton Heston" which can destroy graven images on contact. Even so, the second of Jesus's laws was not conceptually new in those days; it follows logically from the Golden Rule.

Echidna: I was pondering just that, myself. "Look at this crucifix. For those of you that don't know, this is a staute of Jesus crucified. I could say a few things about it: how... grisly. How... ghastly. How... gory. Or one more G word? How... graven."

echidna

Little Mark is 7 years old & ever since prep school, won’t do his honework. After 3 schools, in frustration his parents finally send him to the local Catholic primary school. Imagine their surprise when after the first day they see him avidly working on his maths.

“Why the sudden change ?”, his mother asked.

“Well, this school’s pretty scary. They’ve got this guy hanging on the wall nailed to a plus sign.”

echidna

Yikes, I never spotted the pun ...

Amos

Sola scriptura is a graven image.

Just as the laws of Moses are written upon our heart is if in stone so can the image of salvation be carved upon our heart. That is an idol (from ideal), that protestants worship, and will die for it and worship until they die . . . nontheless.

Catholics don't worship Jesus. We follow Jesus, like the Jesuits, and desire to be like him so we can drink of the cup he drank.

agapeo

True, but if their roads were in the right country it would be you driving on the wrong side.

Amos

True, but if we exchange driving on the wrong side of the road with 'thinking backwards' you can see why they have to drive on the wrong side of the raod.