Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lcb · 07-23-2002, 02:36 PM

I have a closet christian professor who likes to obliquely argue fulfilled bible prophecy, he cites a website <a href="http://100prophecies.org" target="_blank">http://100prophecies.org</a> and other resources, can you all look at this and help me counter this guy! help! after going through most of it i am beginning to wonder if there isnt some reliability to it...help! soon I won't be able to "live in sin" with my boyfriend anymore! seriously though, feedback appreciated

Michael Ledo · 07-23-2002, 02:46 PM

No. There are too many to address them all. There are many flaws. One is the basic assumption of the dates of authorship. If we assume Genesis was written 900 BC. certainly it would be valid predictions. However phrases such as "unto this day" stuck into the text makes one believe of a late authorship or redaction. There are no copies of these OT books with predictions in existance.

The suffering servent in Isiah is a metaphor for Israel. Narrow it down to about 10 of what you or him consider the "best" ones.

lcb · 07-23-2002, 02:53 PM

ok, help me with "those fulfilled in 1948" thanks in advance...(my boyfriend will thank you profusely!)

FunkyRes · 07-23-2002, 03:02 PM

The standard answer to Israel being brought together again is that it has nothing to do with the prophecy- but is within the realm of chance.

Until the prophecy is more fulfilled I (as a Christian who believes the prophecy) personally can't argue that.

I believe God is bringing Israel back together again, but in no way do I see the prophecy yet fulfilled- for they are not in my opinion a God seeking nation, as the prophecy seems to indicate they will be.

If you look at Ezekiels prophecy about the Valley of Dry Bones, though, it does seem to indicate that them being filled with the Spirit of God is not going to happen immediately.

lcb · 07-23-2002, 03:10 PM

this professor says that the odds of Israel (having been brutalized, dispersed, salt sowed into her fields,and assimilated by other cultures throughout the world) being restored to sovereignty as a nation again, with its language and culture and land restored- would be similar to the odds of the American Indians getting the U.S. back and their buffalo herds back and ancient Indian language back and kicking all of us out!

Butters · 07-23-2002, 03:21 PM

The easist prophphies to dispute are the new testament ones concerning Jesus. Till Farrow has written one of the most complete and lucid papers on this that I've seen. The best to start out with is IS. 7:14. I recomend that you read his paper, read the Passage in the Bible, then visit some Christian sites to see their objections.
But always remember, you may talk a Christian to a standstill, but they will never accept the truth, no matter how plain it is. Good luck

lcb · 07-23-2002, 03:24 PM

I thought we were starting with those fulfilled in 1948?

Butters · 07-23-2002, 03:37 PM

Well, if the Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic prophecies, then no Messiah has come, and the end time is not here. (but really, you need more of an expert here). I haven't researched any modern day prophecies, because they prove themselves false. How many times has the end of the world been predicted? How many different ways has Revelations been interpreted? How many anti-christs have been pointed out? I had a good laugh just recently visiting a Christian bookstore. On a clearance table was a dozen or so books that predicted the end would occur at the millinium, you'd think they'd have enough sense to throw them out, but I guess a bucks a buck.

lcb · 07-23-2002, 03:43 PM

the christian fanatics at my college say that the apostles and early christians who saw and heard Jesus would not have martyred themselves and remained christians if Jesus had not in fact performed the miracles attributed to him, including the miracle of the resurrection...

Clutch · 07-23-2002, 03:47 PM

lcb, the particular example you cite is a self-fulfilling sort. The creation of a state of Israel was in considerable measure the work of people -- Christian and Jewish -- who believed with religious conviction that it was Israel's destiny to be a nation again.

You might as well cite the scripture, "Ye shall handle serpents..." and then point to the snake-handling cults as "fulfillment" of this prophecy. The reason people handle snakes (and routinely get bitten, of course) is because they know about the prophecy. Not especially divine or mystical, eh?

07-23-2002, 02:36 PM	#1
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	fulfilled prophecy I have a closet christian professor who likes to obliquely argue fulfilled bible prophecy, he cites a website <a href="http://100prophecies.org" target="_blank">http://100prophecies.org</a> and other resources, can you all look at this and help me counter this guy! help! after going through most of it i am beginning to wonder if there isnt some reliability to it...help! soon I won't be able to "live in sin" with my boyfriend anymore! seriously though, feedback appreciated

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07-23-2002, 02:46 PM	#2
Michael Ledo Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SC Posts: 49	No. There are too many to address them all. There are many flaws. One is the basic assumption of the dates of authorship. If we assume Genesis was written 900 BC. certainly it would be valid predictions. However phrases such as "unto this day" stuck into the text makes one believe of a late authorship or redaction. There are no copies of these OT books with predictions in existance. The suffering servent in Isiah is a metaphor for Israel. Narrow it down to about 10 of what you or him consider the "best" ones.

07-23-2002, 02:53 PM	#3
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	ok, help me with "those fulfilled in 1948" thanks in advance...(my boyfriend will thank you profusely!)

07-23-2002, 03:02 PM	#4
FunkyRes Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Antioch, CA Posts: 173	The standard answer to Israel being brought together again is that it has nothing to do with the prophecy- but is within the realm of chance. Until the prophecy is more fulfilled I (as a Christian who believes the prophecy) personally can't argue that. I believe God is bringing Israel back together again, but in no way do I see the prophecy yet fulfilled- for they are not in my opinion a God seeking nation, as the prophecy seems to indicate they will be. If you look at Ezekiels prophecy about the Valley of Dry Bones, though, it does seem to indicate that them being filled with the Spirit of God is not going to happen immediately.

07-23-2002, 03:10 PM	#5
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	this professor says that the odds of Israel (having been brutalized, dispersed, salt sowed into her fields,and assimilated by other cultures throughout the world) being restored to sovereignty as a nation again, with its language and culture and land restored- would be similar to the odds of the American Indians getting the U.S. back and their buffalo herds back and ancient Indian language back and kicking all of us out!

07-23-2002, 03:21 PM	#6
Butters Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Houston Texas Posts: 444	The easist prophphies to dispute are the new testament ones concerning Jesus. Till Farrow has written one of the most complete and lucid papers on this that I've seen. The best to start out with is IS. 7:14. I recomend that you read his paper, read the Passage in the Bible, then visit some Christian sites to see their objections. But always remember, you may talk a Christian to a standstill, but they will never accept the truth, no matter how plain it is. Good luck

07-23-2002, 03:24 PM	#7
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	I thought we were starting with those fulfilled in 1948?

07-23-2002, 03:37 PM	#8
Butters Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Houston Texas Posts: 444	Well, if the Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic prophecies, then no Messiah has come, and the end time is not here. (but really, you need more of an expert here). I haven't researched any modern day prophecies, because they prove themselves false. How many times has the end of the world been predicted? How many different ways has Revelations been interpreted? How many anti-christs have been pointed out? I had a good laugh just recently visiting a Christian bookstore. On a clearance table was a dozen or so books that predicted the end would occur at the millinium, you'd think they'd have enough sense to throw them out, but I guess a bucks a buck.

07-23-2002, 03:43 PM	#9
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	the christian fanatics at my college say that the apostles and early christians who saw and heard Jesus would not have martyred themselves and remained christians if Jesus had not in fact performed the miracles attributed to him, including the miracle of the resurrection...

07-23-2002, 03:47 PM	#10
Clutch Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 3,751	lcb, the particular example you cite is a self-fulfilling sort. The creation of a state of Israel was in considerable measure the work of people -- Christian and Jewish -- who believed with religious conviction that it was Israel's destiny to be a nation again. You might as well cite the scripture, "Ye shall handle serpents..." and then point to the snake-handling cults as "fulfillment" of this prophecy. The reason people handle snakes (and routinely get bitten, of course) is because they know about the prophecy. Not especially divine or mystical, eh?

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