Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gsx1138 · 10-14-2002, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Intensity : Marduck what do you attribute it to ?
What do you think Tiamat was? What do you think Osiris was? What do you think God was? What do you think the Annunaki referred to?
Pure myth?

Of course they are because the Bible says there is only one God.

Marduk · 10-14-2002, 03:12 PM

ntensity : Marduck what do you attribute it to ?
What do you think Tiamat was? What do you think Osiris was? What do you think God was? What do you think the Annunaki referred to?
Pure myth?
And oh, talking of easiness, which one is easier, dismissing it as pure myth or trying to interpret the texts and early writings?

Tiamat:
from the Enuma Elish, the watery abyss, chaos, from which Marduk created Earth, the idea that the gods created order from chaos is so ancient I don't think we will ever know its origin

Osiris:
He could have been a real life, much loved King of Egypt during its prehistory, or he could simply be the Constellation that we call Orion.

The Annunaki:
I don't know, this is the most interesting of all and it is worth much further study, they could have been a more advanced human tribe from the mountains of Turkey who "descended" into the fertile crescent and taught the locals new technology (The Gods of Eden, Ashes of Angels- Andru Collins)
I agree this stuff should be investigated, but I don't trust Sitchin and I don't think he is a good person to be doing it. He is obsessed with his theory and I've caught him in too many... uhh shall we say mistruths.

Think of how clear and unpolluted by light or smog the skies were in 4000 BCE, think of how much mass a comet loses each time it orbits the sun and how huge a comet like Haley may have been that long ago. I am not surprised that people would be impressed and write stories about them, anthropomorphizing them, and other things like meteors as well. Especially since they didn't know what they were. This is why I am anxiously awaiting Ian Lawtons new book on this subject that I recommended the last time we talked about this.
<a href="http://www.ianlawton.com/index.htm#PAM" target="_blank">http://www.ianlawton.com/index.htm#PAM</a>

However, since so much time has passed I'm not sure if we will ever get to the bottom of all this, unless new artifacts are found.

Ted Hoffman · 10-16-2002, 12:03 AM

Marduck, concerning Osiris and God I have this post below (earlier posted to Radorth) which I would challenge you to provide an alternative interpretation.
UNTIL, you can provide an alternative, meaningful interpretation, I think its irresponsible to say the interpretations are ridiculous.

You can ignore the Biblical stuff at the moment, but what about Osiris?

Quote:

I have this theory that explains what virgin birth means, what son of god means and what sons of god mean. I got it from Alan Alfords book When the Gods Came Down.

In summary, the theory says the ancients beleived that God was a physical planet that exploded (or fell on earth) and its ejecta (now comets) pierced and fecundated the fertile earth, bringing forth mankind, while God rose sphinx-like upward to "heaven". They later "dumbed down" these beliefs by couching them in anthropomorphisms. And this was the basis of the mystery cults. This concept is supported by Sumerian, Akkadian, Mesopotamian, Egyptian and many other ancient texts that mark the very earliest legends and religions known by man and among the texts are Astra Hasis, Enuma Elish, Ethiopian book of the Dead[/b], Coffin Texts, Ethiopian Kabra Nagast, The Egyptian Book of Gates etc. Astronomers who unknowingly support this theory do so under the concept of panspermia (by the way, what is that on Kirbys site about we being of the stars?).

It's a theory that also has biblical support (dead sea scrolls Scroll 4Q246 actually uses the word comet - not that this is canonical, but there it is) and thats where you come in. I am going to quote biblical verses that support this theory and yours is a hermeneutical challenge to provide an interpretation of the quoted verses that has more explanatory power.

We shall start with the use of the word the word.
In 1 John 1 we find:

Quote:

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life

If is the word of life in the above passage.
More beautifully, in John 1

Quote:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Here the word was with god (or God had it) and the word was god. ie god was the word.

But where else do we find the word?
In Jeremiah 23 :: King James Version (KJV)

Quote:

29 Is not my word like as a fire ? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

What kind of word would be like a hammer that breaks a rock to pieces?
What word would be like a fire?
Comets that enter the earths atmosphere heat up to high degrees and when they hit the surface of the earth, the impact is devastating.

John the Baptist also talked of Baptism of fire. In Baptism, a new life is supposed to emerge forth.

But I am digressing.
Are there other texts that talk about the word?
In the Egyptian Coffin Texts it says the following about the word:

Quote:

This is the sealed thing which is in darkness, with fire about it, which contains the efflux of Osiris, and it is put in Rostau(Giza). It has been hidden since it fell from him (Osiris), and it is what came down from him onto the desert of sand...This is the word which was darkness. Fire is about it(that) which Contains the efflux of Osiris

This passage underlines the ancient belief that a comet fell (from Oriris) in egypt and penetrated the earth [its dark underground - hence "in darkness"] and later impregnated it, bringing forth mankind from mother earth.

But did the hebrews beleive that they came from comets (now rocks) that had penetrated the earth?

Yes they did, in Deut 32:17:

Quote:

They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God [ie the rock - sunken meteorite] that formed thee.

emphasis mine

Any other evidence?
Yes Isiah 55:1:

Quote:

1 Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.

To get a clearer picture, I quote Samuel Kramer History Begins at Sumer as quoted by Alan Alford in [i]When The Gods Came Down[/b] pg.
388.

Quote:

Smooth, big Earth made herself resplendent, bautified her body joyously.
Wide earth bedecked her body with precious metal and lapis lazuli
Adorned herself with diorite, chalcedony and Shiny carnelian.
Heaven arrayed himself in a wig of vendure, stood up in princeship.
Holy earth, the virgin, beautified herself for holy heaven.
Heaven, the lofty god, planted his knees on wide earth,
Poured the semen of the heroes tree and reed into her womb.
Sweet earth, the fecund cow, was impregnated with the rich semen of Heaven.
Joyfully did earth tend to the giving birth of the plants of life...

With this understanding, the idea of virgin birth makes sense. Mary was an anthropomorphism of this early belief of a virgin earth being impregnated by god.

This same idea is also clear in the birth of Horus by virgin Isis in ancient Egyptian texts. Osiris, was born in a similar fashion to Samson of the bible. The Egyptian texts describe Isis' conception thus:

Quote:

The lightning flash strikes...Isis wakes up pregnant with the seed of her brother Osiris...Atum says "O maiden(ie virgin) you are pregnant and you are hidden...you will give birth, being pregnant for the gods...

Samson (Manoah's son), Isaac (Abrahams), JBap (Elizabeths) and Jesus (Mary's) had similar "virgin" births where god "came upon" the women and impregnated them (I bet there are other biblical examples I have left out).
The term "Virgin birth" meant birth without sexual intercourse and it is an expression that was drawn from these early beliefs.

The interpretation I am putting forth here explains many religious concepts, which we can address later. Leave the astronomy aside and lets focus on scriptural exegetics first.

Marduk · 10-16-2002, 11:39 AM

I don’t remember saying it was ridiculous and I’m not sure what you are getting at. If I understand you correctly even if these texts are about an exploding planet being the origin of the god myths it would still be just a guess, no one was alive when this happened to witness this exploding planet if it was responsible for creating life. No amount of analysis can prove what would amount to be a lucky guess, there are ancient references to a round earth, evolution, heliocentricity, and even the big bang. This just shows how clever and imaginative people were and still are. Since we are talking about stories that deal with something no one actually saw then even if it’s true it would just be old-time luck that they guessed correctly.

Ted Hoffman · 10-16-2002, 11:53 PM

Marduck If I understand you correctly even if these texts are about an exploding planet being the origin of the god myths it would still be just a guess

Intensity An interpretation is not a guess.

Marduck no one was alive when this happened to witness this exploding planet if it was responsible for creating life.

Intensity You watched evolution? You dont think someone can witness an asteroid hitting the earth and possibly witnessing the aftermath then deducing from that?
Have you read anything on panspermia?

Marduck No amount of analysis can prove what would amount to be a lucky guess, there are ancient references to a round earth, evolution, heliocentricity, and even the big bang.

Intensity They tried their best with what they had.

marduck : Since we are talking about stories that deal with something no one actually saw then even if it’s true it would just be old-time luck that they guessed correctly

Intensity Is it your conviction that there is no valuable knowledge we can glean from ancient texts concerning our origins?

galiel · 10-17-2002, 05:15 AM

Na na na na,
Na na na na,
Hey hey hey,
Mahabharata.

Ted Hoffman · 10-17-2002, 09:13 AM

[edited to delete ye ye yeah yeye...]

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Intensity ]</p>

Marduk · 10-17-2002, 11:18 AM

"Intensity: Is it your conviction that there is no valuable knowledge we can glean from ancient texts concerning our origins?"

No, just nothing for certain, we can only speculate at this point. Maybe they were just monster stories. I don't know and probably never will. I don't mean to give the impression that I think ancient people were morons, they clearly weren't since it is their shoulders we are standing on. If they saw a meteor crash and deduced panspermia fine, but what will be the criteria to say "Yes! this is exactly what they were talking about!" at this point in time.
I have read many of these old poems and stories, they are often rather enigmatic, what will be the key to a 100% definitive interpretation???

Jeremy Pallant · 10-17-2002, 05:54 PM

I think this thread would be better continued in Miscellaneous Discussions.

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10-14-2002, 03:12 PM	#12
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	ntensity : Marduck what do you attribute it to ? What do you think Tiamat was? What do you think Osiris was? What do you think God was? What do you think the Annunaki referred to? Pure myth? And oh, talking of easiness, which one is easier, dismissing it as pure myth or trying to interpret the texts and early writings? Tiamat: from the Enuma Elish, the watery abyss, chaos, from which Marduk created Earth, the idea that the gods created order from chaos is so ancient I don't think we will ever know its origin Osiris: He could have been a real life, much loved King of Egypt during its prehistory, or he could simply be the Constellation that we call Orion. The Annunaki: I don't know, this is the most interesting of all and it is worth much further study, they could have been a more advanced human tribe from the mountains of Turkey who "descended" into the fertile crescent and taught the locals new technology (The Gods of Eden, Ashes of Angels- Andru Collins) I agree this stuff should be investigated, but I don't trust Sitchin and I don't think he is a good person to be doing it. He is obsessed with his theory and I've caught him in too many... uhh shall we say mistruths. Think of how clear and unpolluted by light or smog the skies were in 4000 BCE, think of how much mass a comet loses each time it orbits the sun and how huge a comet like Haley may have been that long ago. I am not surprised that people would be impressed and write stories about them, anthropomorphizing them, and other things like meteors as well. Especially since they didn't know what they were. This is why I am anxiously awaiting Ian Lawtons new book on this subject that I recommended the last time we talked about this. <a href="http://www.ianlawton.com/index.htm#PAM" target="_blank">http://www.ianlawton.com/index.htm#PAM</a> However, since so much time has passed I'm not sure if we will ever get to the bottom of all this, unless new artifacts are found.

10-16-2002, 11:39 AM	#14
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	I don’t remember saying it was ridiculous and I’m not sure what you are getting at. If I understand you correctly even if these texts are about an exploding planet being the origin of the god myths it would still be just a guess, no one was alive when this happened to witness this exploding planet if it was responsible for creating life. No amount of analysis can prove what would amount to be a lucky guess, there are ancient references to a round earth, evolution, heliocentricity, and even the big bang. This just shows how clever and imaginative people were and still are. Since we are talking about stories that deal with something no one actually saw then even if it’s true it would just be old-time luck that they guessed correctly.

10-16-2002, 11:53 PM	#15
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	Marduck If I understand you correctly even if these texts are about an exploding planet being the origin of the god myths it would still be just a guess Intensity An interpretation is not a guess. Marduck no one was alive when this happened to witness this exploding planet if it was responsible for creating life. Intensity You watched evolution? You dont think someone can witness an asteroid hitting the earth and possibly witnessing the aftermath then deducing from that? Have you read anything on panspermia? Marduck No amount of analysis can prove what would amount to be a lucky guess, there are ancient references to a round earth, evolution, heliocentricity, and even the big bang. Intensity They tried their best with what they had. marduck : Since we are talking about stories that deal with something no one actually saw then even if it’s true it would just be old-time luck that they guessed correctly Intensity Is it your conviction that there is no valuable knowledge we can glean from ancient texts concerning our origins?

10-17-2002, 05:15 AM	#16
galiel Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Eastern Massachusetts Posts: 1,677	Na na na na, Na na na na, Hey hey hey, Mahabharata.

10-17-2002, 09:13 AM	#17
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	[edited to delete ye ye yeah yeye...] [ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Intensity ]</p>

10-17-2002, 11:18 AM	#18
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"Intensity: Is it your conviction that there is no valuable knowledge we can glean from ancient texts concerning our origins?" No, just nothing for certain, we can only speculate at this point. Maybe they were just monster stories. I don't know and probably never will. I don't mean to give the impression that I think ancient people were morons, they clearly weren't since it is their shoulders we are standing on. If they saw a meteor crash and deduced panspermia fine, but what will be the criteria to say "Yes! this is exactly what they were talking about!" at this point in time. I have read many of these old poems and stories, they are often rather enigmatic, what will be the key to a 100% definitive interpretation???

10-17-2002, 05:54 PM	#19
Jeremy Pallant Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA Posts: 1,242	I think this thread would be better continued in Miscellaneous Discussions.

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