lobstertrap

Everyone hears in the news that "Islam is a religion of peace," and that is all great and wonderful, but the Koran also says to kill all the "infidels," or non-Muslim people.

Now, what do the "peace-loving" Muslims say to that? If they're peaceful, when does the time come to stop being peaceful and kill all the infidels?

Theli

I've wondered about this to.
How can they say that their peacefull nature is a part of Islam?

raindropple

Quote some verses from the Koran then we can discuss it.

As far as I know Islam permits self defense and armed self defense in certain cases.

Also this defense is allowed till the threat is gone.

Hence at times it means to kill to defend.

In some cases I read it says in the Koran kill the unbelievers , though when one looks at the context it is clearly seen in a self defense situation.

Hope this helps a bit.

simian

Don't forget the bible says to kill any number of people (probably including unbelievers - infidels). Yet, Christianity claims to be a religion of peace.

The news frequently shows the radical side of Islam. That is not all there is. If you want to get to know more normal Islam, find a mosque or islamic center in your area and spend some time talking to the people there.

Don't condemn all of Islam on the acts of a few, any more than you would condemn all veterans based on the acts of Tim McVeigh (spelling?).

Simian

lobstertrap

Here's some quotes...

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief [all non-Muslims]...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

" Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Surah At-Taubah 9:29)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"It is He [Muslim god] who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)

"Believers [Muslims], make war on the infidels [all non-Muslims] who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them."(Surah 9:121-)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

raindropple

Here is the a piece of chapter 9.

12. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief Lo! they have no binding oaths in order that they may desist.
13. Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers.
14. Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers.
15. And He will remove the anger of their hearts. Allah relenteth toward whom He will. Allah is Knower, Wise.
16. Or deemed ye that ye would be left (in peace) when Allah yet knoweth not those of you who strive, choosing for familiar none save Allah and His messenger and the believers? Allah is Informed of what ye do.
17. It is not for the idolaters to tend Allah's sanctuaries, bearing witness against themselves of disbelief. As for such, their works are vain and in the Fire they will abide.
18. He only shall tend Allah's sanctuaries who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due and feareth none save Allah. For such (only) is it possible that they can be of the rightly guided.
19. Count ye the slaking of a pilgrim's thirst and tendance of the Inviolable Place of Worship as (equal to the worth of him) who believeth in Allah and the Last Day, and striveth in the way of Allah? They are not equal in the sight of Allah. Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
20. Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant.
21. Their Lord giveth them good tidings of mercy from Him, and acceptance, and Gardens where enduring pleasure will be theirs;
22. There they will abide for ever. Lo! with Allah there is immense reward.
23. O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong doers.
24. Say: If your fathers, and your sons, and your brethren, and your wives, and your tribe, and the wealth ye have acquired, and merchandise for which ye fear that there will be no sale, and dwellings ye desire are dearer to you than Allah and His messenger and striving in His way: then wait till Allah bringeth His command to pass. Allah guideth not wrong doing folk.
25. Allah hath given you victory on many fields and on the day of Huneyn, when ye exulted in your multitude but it availed you naught, and the earth, vast as it is, was straitened for you; then ye turned back in flight;
26. Then Allah sent His peace of reassurance down upon His messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts ye could not see, and punished those who disbelieved. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
27. Then afterward Allah will relent toward whom He will; for Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
28. O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
29. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.


Thanks for the quotes.

I am quite sure you got this off some site and have never even read the original from the Koran , because if you did you will easily see that this was revealed in connection with the time when the believers were driven out of their homes in Mecca and were still persecuted by the Quaraish. They were persecuted and killed and driven out.

They were even persecuted to the extent that when the believers fled to other countries the Quaraish would try and get them back so as to torture them some more.


This is in recoreded history as well. Look up on the Negus of Abbasinnia, where the believers fled too.

So these statements are in connection with self defense and hence to fight the unbelievers until the threat is gone.

Aslo the Quaraish have also broken a piece treaty at this time.

This is an example of how defense should be done.

Do yourself a favour and read up on the history and when certain verses were revealed and in what context.

All this verses you quote indicate nothing but self defense against a very hard agressor who wont stop at nothing and has to be stopped.

You ask, so what do muslims now do.

Well if the circumstances are the same, that is the muslims are persecuted and killed and driven away, they can then fight back only when they first established a state that can replace the bad oppressing state and second they can only fight if the persecutors are still persecuting them as the Quaraish did when they tried to get refugees back from countries giving them asylum.

This can all be found in history books.

So do yourself a favour and look it uüp.

Thanks

[ August 13, 2002: Message edited by: raindropple ]

[ August 13, 2002: Message edited by: raindropple ]</p>

raindropple

[ August 13, 2002: Message edited by: raindropple ]</p>

ansarthemystic

Ahhhh, the defective English translations of the internet!

The Arabic word for to cause to die, or kill, is wafat.The verses in the English translations that say "kill,slay.." never you use the word, but use a word that is used in the context of self-defense killing, or prevention of killing.

let's look at those verses again:

Surah 9:12: And if they break their oaths after their agreement and revile your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief-surely their oaths are nothing-so that they may desist.

Surah 9:29: Fight(Strive with) those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor follow the Religion of Truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Surah9:31-33:They take their doctors of law and their monks for Lords besides Allah, and the Messiah, son of Mary.And they were enjoined that they shopuld serve one god only-there is no god but He. Be He glorified from what they set uo.
They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths,and Allah will allow nothing save the perfection of His light, though the disbelievers are averse.
He it is Who sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth[Islam], that He may cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists are averse.

Surah 9:123 h you who believe [Muslims], fight with the disbelievers who are near to youand let them find firmness in you.

Surah 48:29:Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah,and those who are with him are firm in heart against the disbelievers [all non-Muslims] compassionate among themselves."

Do you see the differences!"Fight" means "strive with" or Fight in the Way of Allah" which is either fighting for self-defense and/or fighting to establish justice and eliminate evil.

A word on the Jizya tax in Surah 9:29 that propagandists use to show Muslim oppression of non-Muslims... The tax should only be active in times of war("jihad")....the tax is taken from free non-muslim subjects in a Muslim government wherby to ratify the compact that ensures their protection or according to Bahr al-Muhth, b/c it is acompensation for for protection that is guaranteed non-Muslims, who are free from military service.

peace and blessings

Walter_Mitty

Perhaps Allah needs an editor?

simian

Have you met a god who doesn't?


Simian