Bible Humper

My expectations aren't very high, all I want is either a single feat that is inexplicable any other way besides magic, or else I want to hear a philosophy so profound that I cannot doubt that only an omniscient mind could have thought of it.

I would expect the almighty to have already forseen and delt with any factor that would cause confusion, such as evidence that suggests his miracles are fraudulent.

Unless there is some unknown paradox that prevents Yahweh from showing himself, the merest glimpse would be quite sufficient.

It doesn't seem consistent that he rose from the dead and much else in front of his first believers, but we're supposed to take it on faith that of all the stories of magic from these times, this one is actually for real.

I'm not too sure what objection you had to the bits you quoted, clarify and I'll answer your question.

Bible Humper

A somewhat longer Amosism than before

I wasn't referring to this actually, what I was talking about was the way the church sinks it's hooks into kids that are still gullible enough to believe in tooth fairies and such.

The imagination of the child is also particularly fertile at this time, indeed neurological studies have shown that adult believers have the same brain activity while "conversing with Jesus" as young children do when they are talking to their imaginary playmate Petey the talking bunny-rabbit.

The church hooks you, reinforces the message, and by the time you are old enough to think for yourself, you are usually no longer even capable of questioning the central premise "Yahweh exists". Weekly indoctrination sessions that they actually convince you to pay for yourself are designed to reinforce the message throughout the life of the believer.

Wrong! Faith articles don't have to be true at all to be understood, just consider the faith articles of religions you personally don't believe in such as animism for examples. The shaman still understands his faith, and can teach lessons with the legend, but we both agree that his story never did happen.

Well, maybe you do, but in the spiritual realm or some such!

[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Bible Humper/ SCoW ]</p>

Vanderzyden

1. How would you distinguish magic from miracle?

2. Tell me, have you read in the Bible of the "foolishness of God"?

3. By your responses thus far, I imagine that you have encountered discussions or reading concerning the compatibility of divine foreknowledge and human freedom. Why isn't is possible for a perfect God to allow his creatures to reject him?

Vanderzyden

Kent Stevens

The same arguments that apply to proving the existence of god can apply to proving the existence of Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, or any mythological creature.

Design argument: we were created by Santa Claus so that he can get joy from seeing us receive presents. Only Santa could have been capable of creating a universe fit for us giving presents in.

Ontologoical argument: Santa is the perfect supreme being. Since it is not possible to imagine a being greater than Santa Claus, and existence is part of something being perfect, Santa Claus must exist.

Popularity argument: Lots of people believe in Santa so he must exist.

Morality argument: If we do not have Santa punishing or rewarding us it is impossible for us to do good.

Political argument: Santa is necessary for patriotism therefore Santa must exist.

Family values argument: Santa is necessary for good family values therefore Santa must exist.

Santa makes a personal difference: Someone thinks that Santa has revealed himself to them and helps comfort them, therefore Santa must exist.

Amos

Correct, only if they are grounded in truth can they be understood and this would be the reason why all mythologies tell the same story but use different legends to present them.

zamboniavenger

Hello Vanderzyden,
Would you agree that our immortal fate is no game? I mean, being tossed into a pit of eternal suffering is no joke. With stakes so high, is it so much to ask for a little miracle every now and again just to prove that somebody is home? From what I understand, he used to manifest himself all the time, right?

Vanderzyden

It would seem that you are implying that you require a personal demonstration. Likely, you maintain specific criteria on what you will consider miraculous. Have you seriously considered that the truth claims in scripture may actually be true? Have you carefully read them for yourself, or have you relied on second-hand accounts?

You do realize, for example, that Jesus of Nazareth anticipated concerns like the one you raise:

"To what, then, can I compare the people of this generation? What are they like? They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other:

'We played the flute for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge,
and you did not cry.'

For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." '

But wisdom is proved right by all her children."

-- Luke 7:31-35


Vanderzyden

[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: Vanderzyden ]</p>

zamboniavenger

I can truthfully answer yes to both of these questions. I have carefully studied the accounts of the bible, which is perhaps the ultimate second hand source of information, IMO. I'm not going to believe the bible simply because the bible says that it is true.
That's not true. I certainly would not require a personal, visual demo of god's power to believe. Like others of have noted, I believe in subatomic particles, though I've certainly never seen one. Anyways, I do not believe that is to much to ask for since that was his modus operandi(using latin makes me feel smart )throughout so much of the bible. Remeber, the burning bush and the pillars of flame? I also don't buy into your qoutation either. What I got from that was the same old line that there are miracles all around me, but my heart is to hard to notice. Was that the idea? Anyways, in summation, extraordinary claims should require extraordinary evidence, which should be no problem for an omnimax deity like the abrahamic god.

Vanderzyden

[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: Vanderzyden ]</p>

Vanderzyden

In your reading of the Bible, I wonder if you realize that the miracles are very infrequent. So, I'm not sure we could say that miracles are a "regular mode of operation". It is made clear that each one has specific purpose and general purpose.

Let me ask:

What is your understanding of the general purpose of every miracle that is recorded in scripture?

Vanderzyden

[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: Vanderzyden ]</p>