Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Corgan Sow · 03-26-2003, 05:34 PM

My last thread revived the same old debates of supernaturalism vs skepticism, and I am dissapointed that "faith" is viewed as stereotypically belief in unnecessary notion out of unnecessary fear. In my country where people practice religions (other than Islam and Christianity), it is not out of sole fear for an invisible diety, rather they needed faith to survive in life's turbulent wheel where "lack of faith" thereof will result in breakdown, like mental breakdown or suicide. They needed faith to cope with stress, despair and mental depression and such, not in preparation for death and beyond. Even some of my staunch Buddhist pagan friends do not believe in afterlife and damnation in hell.

In such case, atheists can also have faith, or not? Say when you're stuck in a war, and in threat of your life in battlefield, do you not have faith that somehow you will pass through all these shit and make it through the day? You don't need to believe in a tooth fairy in order to have this kind of faith, right?

Autonemesis · 03-26-2003, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corgan Sow
Say when you're stuck in a war, and in threat of your life in battlefield, do you not have faith that somehow you will pass through all these shit and make it through the day?

No, I wouldn't. It would not cross my mind that I "need" something to "pass through all this shit". I would hope I live through it, or I might wish I was someplace else, but I don't identify any of those mental states with faith. It just wouldn't occur to me that "I can't do this without X." The way I see it, there's no avoiding "passing through all this shit", you know? The world turns whether I want it to or not, and another day comes. Faith just doesn't enter into it.

beyelzu · 03-26-2003, 05:50 PM

I think that the kind of faith in luck or random chance that things will end up ok, while irrational, is not even in the same league as faith in somesort of invisible skydaddy.

Biff the unclean · 03-26-2003, 05:57 PM

Every thing that Theists like yourself claim you need faith to get through Atheists go through as well. We get through it with the same amount of grace as a Theist does. We don't kill ourselves any more often than Theists or have nervous breakdowns more often. We come through battle just as well as you do. In fact there is no way to tell that we are Atheists without asking.

So that can mean one of two things.
Either 1) Faith doesn't do you one lick of good
Or
2) Atheists are much better, stronger, more stable than Theists because even though they lack the great advantage of faith they are still indiscernible from Theists.

I would guess number one is the answer.

MrFrosty · 03-26-2003, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corgan Sow
In my country where people practice religions (other than Islam and Christianity), it is not out of sole fear for an invisible diety, rather they needed faith to survive in life's turbulent wheel where "lack of faith" thereof will result in breakdown, like mental breakdown or suicide. They needed faith to cope with stress, despair and mental depression and such, not in preparation for death and beyond.

Interesting post. But, religion used as an emotional and mental crutch? Who would have guessed...!

Not everybody needs "faith to survive in life's turbulent wheel". The ppl you mention, quite frankly, sound as if they are entirely dependent upon religion. Not much of a selling point for it: religion used as a coping mechanism. How about empowering oneself through one's own endeavour and taking responsibility?

Incidentally, re: religion used to avoid mental breakdown. Pls refer to some of Fiach's posts and his involvement with neurology. Based on his experience, almost all schizophrenic patients he has encountered are deeply religious. I have spoken to a Consultant Psychiatrist who has also stated similar experiences. I sometimes wonder why some severely mentally ill patients are drawn to religion.

Addressing your point about war, I would hope that soldiers have the common sense to look to their training and comrades to survive the mortal danger they found themselves in. With bullets flying everywhere, that might achieve somewhat more than praying to fictitious social constructs. Atheists have faith, sure, but not in the religious sense but from the perspective of having trust: they have faith in their own and other ppl's abilities, for example, but that's not exclusive to atheists of course.

Anyway, for those interested, try looking up "external locus of control" on the Web. Devoutly faithful, fundy and / or dependent-upon-religion types tend to have a strong external locus of control.

Family Man · 03-26-2003, 06:52 PM

I've lived through a personal hell at one point in my life, and I guess you could say that I had faith that I would get through it. But it was a faith that was grounded in reality, not in that some fairy god was going to solve all my problems for me. It was the simple realization that the situation I was in wouldn't last forever and that I could transcend the experience.

I don't begrudge people their faith; I do begrudge the attitude that, if I don't share that belief, that I am less of a person than they are.

Infidelettante · 03-26-2003, 07:17 PM

Hi Corgan Sow, I think it is interesting to note some of the words you use in this post. Turbulent, breakdown, cope, stress, despair, depression. All of these are powerful emotional issues. That some use the emotional shield of faith as protection is understandable. What must also be understood is that faith exists on an emotional spectrum, not a rational one.

Faith deals well with life in all its' trials and difficulties. It allows some to find peace and contentment in the face of soul breaking poverty and the mind numbing misery of disease and famine.

But I am a middle class, middle aged American. What do I know of poverty and hunger? I need no faith to keep the horrors away. I have no worries for my children other than that the girl has discovered makeup and evidently has Tammy Fay Bakers taste and the boy makes more money that I do now. Things are great. Who needs faith when times are great.

Would I take away their faith? No. Let those who need it have it. Those who don't will find their own ways.

JT

Corgan Sow · 03-26-2003, 08:34 PM

Every thing that Theists like yourself claim you need faith to get through Atheists go through as well.

I don't belief in a benevolent God, although I have grounds similar to deism. I must say sorry because "religions" I meant are taoism and Buddhism, and these philosophies do not ask you to turn to an invisible deity when in troubled times.

But, religion used as an emotional and mental crutch? Who would have guessed...!

Oh well, that is their(theists) business, but ...

Atheists have faith, sure, but not in the religious sense but from the perspective of having trust: they have faith in their own and other ppl's abilities, for example, but that's not exclusive to atheists of course.

right. Faith doesn't have to be deprived from belief in a tooth fairy, right?

03-26-2003, 05:34 PM	#1
Corgan Sow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 1,537	Do even atheists have faith? My last thread revived the same old debates of supernaturalism vs skepticism, and I am dissapointed that "faith" is viewed as stereotypically belief in unnecessary notion out of unnecessary fear. In my country where people practice religions (other than Islam and Christianity), it is not out of sole fear for an invisible diety, rather they needed faith to survive in life's turbulent wheel where "lack of faith" thereof will result in breakdown, like mental breakdown or suicide. They needed faith to cope with stress, despair and mental depression and such, not in preparation for death and beyond. Even some of my staunch Buddhist pagan friends do not believe in afterlife and damnation in hell. In such case, atheists can also have faith, or not? Say when you're stuck in a war, and in threat of your life in battlefield, do you not have faith that somehow you will pass through all these shit and make it through the day? You don't need to believe in a tooth fairy in order to have this kind of faith, right?

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03-26-2003, 05:50 PM	#3
beyelzu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: the peach state ga I am a metaphysical naturalist Posts: 2,869	I think that the kind of faith in luck or random chance that things will end up ok, while irrational, is not even in the same league as faith in somesort of invisible skydaddy.

03-26-2003, 05:57 PM	#4
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Every thing that Theists like yourself claim you need faith to get through Atheists go through as well. We get through it with the same amount of grace as a Theist does. We don't kill ourselves any more often than Theists or have nervous breakdowns more often. We come through battle just as well as you do. In fact there is no way to tell that we are Atheists without asking. So that can mean one of two things. Either 1) Faith doesn't do you one lick of good Or 2) Atheists are much better, stronger, more stable than Theists because even though they lack the great advantage of faith they are still indiscernible from Theists. I would guess number one is the answer.

03-26-2003, 06:52 PM	#6
Family Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Superior, CO USA Posts: 1,553	I've lived through a personal hell at one point in my life, and I guess you could say that I had faith that I would get through it. But it was a faith that was grounded in reality, not in that some fairy god was going to solve all my problems for me. It was the simple realization that the situation I was in wouldn't last forever and that I could transcend the experience. I don't begrudge people their faith; I do begrudge the attitude that, if I don't share that belief, that I am less of a person than they are.

03-26-2003, 07:17 PM	#7
Infidelettante Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Deep South Posts: 889	Hi Corgan Sow, I think it is interesting to note some of the words you use in this post. Turbulent, breakdown, cope, stress, despair, depression. All of these are powerful emotional issues. That some use the emotional shield of faith as protection is understandable. What must also be understood is that faith exists on an emotional spectrum, not a rational one. Faith deals well with life in all its' trials and difficulties. It allows some to find peace and contentment in the face of soul breaking poverty and the mind numbing misery of disease and famine. But I am a middle class, middle aged American. What do I know of poverty and hunger? I need no faith to keep the horrors away. I have no worries for my children other than that the girl has discovered makeup and evidently has Tammy Fay Bakers taste and the boy makes more money that I do now. Things are great. Who needs faith when times are great. Would I take away their faith? No. Let those who need it have it. Those who don't will find their own ways. JT

03-26-2003, 08:34 PM	#8
Corgan Sow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 1,537	Every thing that Theists like yourself claim you need faith to get through Atheists go through as well. I don't belief in a benevolent God, although I have grounds similar to deism. I must say sorry because "religions" I meant are taoism and Buddhism, and these philosophies do not ask you to turn to an invisible deity when in troubled times. But, religion used as an emotional and mental crutch? Who would have guessed...! Oh well, that is their(theists) business, but ... Atheists have faith, sure, but not in the religious sense but from the perspective of having trust: they have faith in their own and other ppl's abilities, for example, but that's not exclusive to atheists of course. right. Faith doesn't have to be deprived from belief in a tooth fairy, right?

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