Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Graeme · 08-07-2002, 10:11 AM

It seems to me that an operation like this would be very difficult to rationalize for a fundamentalist christian.

If their worldview is correct, then their God created these twins in this manner, joined at the top of the head facing different directions.

While I can see that in some cases of cojoined twins one could make the argument that it is a 'challenge', but when one considers the absolutely massive problems that this kind of joining would create later in life for both twins, this seems fairly hard to accept. Joined at the head like this, these twins would not be able to move around under their own power, and even eating and drinking would be quite difficult without considerable help.

The operation to separate the twins used a fairly massive amount of scientific knowledge, the same scientific knowledge that creationists and fundies pass off as fundamentally invalid. And yet it worked - and fixed a problem that their 'god' had presumedly created in the first place.

How is this dealt with? I have heard basically nothing in the news of the fundamentalist response to this case, even though it has been on the front page of cnn.com for four days straight.

Godless Dave · 08-07-2002, 10:23 AM

Graeme, you are committing the all too common fallacy of assuming that fundamentalist views are consistent.

The fact that these twins were born conjoined is part of God's plan.

The fact that they were successfully separated is a miracle.

Got it now?

simian · 08-07-2002, 10:44 AM

The twins were created perfect. They are joined due to some sin of the parents (almost certainly of the mother).

I can emulate a fundy so well, I frighten myself.

Simian

ex-preacher · 08-07-2002, 11:22 AM

All disease and natural suffering in this world is a result of the fall. God is very saddenned by congenital abnormalities, but ehy are the fault of Satan and necessary because of free will. The fact that scientists were able to separate them successfully is thanks to God granting them the wisdom.

Graeme · 08-07-2002, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ex-preacher:
All disease and natural suffering in this world is a result of the fall. God is very saddenned by congenital abnormalities, but ehy are the fault of Satan and necessary because of free will. The fact that scientists were able to separate them successfully is thanks to God granting them the wisdom.

This is my point - while God may have granted them the wisdom, it most definitely came by way of texts based on such blasphemies as evolutionary theory.

08-07-2002, 12:32 PM

There was a fundie couple on the news last night that went through a similar situation with conjoined twins of their own, and they went on and on about the "healing power of prayer" and the "importance of faith." There was hardly any mention at all of the doctors and scientists who brought their children back from the brink of death.

Perhaps we should just accept that it's god's will that Maria Teresa and Maria de Jesus were born conjoined. It was also god's will that Maria Teresa suffered a painful subdural hematoma a few hours after the separation surgery ended. You would think that a god would show some mercy toward little girls from a third-world country, but I guess that's just too much to ask.

[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]

HelenM · 08-07-2002, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by simian:
The twins were created perfect. They are joined due to some sin of the parents (almost certainly of the mother).

I can emulate a fundy so well, I frighten myself.

Simian

*sigh*

Actually no, that is not a very good emulation of a 'fundamentalist'. That's not what any of the 'fundamentalists' I know would say.

They would say the twins were conjoined due to sin being in the world in general but not due to the sin of the mother in particular. You can read John 9 where Jesus dismisses the notion that the sin of the parents caused their son to be blind. I can't think what clearer Biblical refutation there could be of what you just said. And fundamentalists know that passage.

Queen of Swords · 08-07-2002, 01:51 PM

Quote:

The deformities and death in the children of such marriages are caused by the obvious sins of the parents. The parents blame God. You can hear them say, "If God is God, and if God is love, then why did He allow this to happen to us and our baby?" The birth-control pill and other birth-control devices, including drugs, bring the curses of God upon the fruit of our bodies and upon the sinful parents. God gives parents more than adequate, fair warning that curses would be the result.

From Pastor Tony Alamo, Alamo Christian Ministries Online.

One of the last sane · 08-07-2002, 03:27 PM

How does Pastor Tony Alamo explain all the criminals who sire or give birth to normal healthy children then?

HelenM · 08-07-2002, 03:34 PM

QofS, Tony Alamo isn't really 'mainstream conservative Christian'

...but anyway, I don't think he's saying God supernaturally strikes babies of parents who sin in certain ways with defects.

I think he's saying that certain behaviors entail certain risks of undesirable consequences - and that that's why God said don't engage in them.

Since he seems to think all birth control is sinful, that would include any birth defects that occur as a result of having been on birth control or being on it but getting pregnant anyway.

I hope you can see that's very different from saying that if you sin in any way, God is going to strike down your babies. It's more like saying - you ate too much candy and you got cavities - well, your Dentist did try to warn you...not, your Dentist decided to set your house on fire because you didn't listen to his advice. The latter was how the post earlier came across to me. I don't even think Tony Alamo is saying that. But it's hard to tell without more of the article.

Could you give the URL so I can see what he means by "such" marriages?

Why did I even post on this thread...I don't know that many people here even care whether they are misrepresenting Christians or not...

love
Helen

08-07-2002, 10:11 AM	#1
Graeme Banned Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada Posts: 5,447	How do Fundamentalists deal with the recent separation of cojoined twins? It seems to me that an operation like this would be very difficult to rationalize for a fundamentalist christian. If their worldview is correct, then their God created these twins in this manner, joined at the top of the head facing different directions. While I can see that in some cases of cojoined twins one could make the argument that it is a 'challenge', but when one considers the absolutely massive problems that this kind of joining would create later in life for both twins, this seems fairly hard to accept. Joined at the head like this, these twins would not be able to move around under their own power, and even eating and drinking would be quite difficult without considerable help. The operation to separate the twins used a fairly massive amount of scientific knowledge, the same scientific knowledge that creationists and fundies pass off as fundamentally invalid. And yet it worked - and fixed a problem that their 'god' had presumedly created in the first place. How is this dealt with? I have heard basically nothing in the news of the fundamentalist response to this case, even though it has been on the front page of cnn.com for four days straight.

08-07-2002, 12:32 PM	#6
atheist_in_foxhole Guest Posts: n/a	There was a fundie couple on the news last night that went through a similar situation with conjoined twins of their own, and they went on and on about the "healing power of prayer" and the "importance of faith." There was hardly any mention at all of the doctors and scientists who brought their children back from the brink of death. Perhaps we should just accept that it's god's will that Maria Teresa and Maria de Jesus were born conjoined. It was also god's will that Maria Teresa suffered a painful subdural hematoma a few hours after the separation surgery ended. You would think that a god would show some mercy toward little girls from a third-world country, but I guess that's just too much to ask. [ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]</p>

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08-07-2002, 10:23 AM	#2
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	Graeme, you are committing the all too common fallacy of assuming that fundamentalist views are consistent. The fact that these twins were born conjoined is part of God's plan. The fact that they were successfully separated is a miracle. Got it now?

08-07-2002, 10:44 AM	#3
simian Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: St. Louis, MO area Posts: 1,924	The twins were created perfect. They are joined due to some sin of the parents (almost certainly of the mother). I can emulate a fundy so well, I frighten myself. Simian

08-07-2002, 11:22 AM	#4
ex-preacher Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: University of Arkansas Posts: 1,033	All disease and natural suffering in this world is a result of the fall. God is very saddenned by congenital abnormalities, but ehy are the fault of Satan and necessary because of free will. The fact that scientists were able to separate them successfully is thanks to God granting them the wisdom.

08-07-2002, 03:27 PM	#9
One of the last sane Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: hereabouts Posts: 734	How does Pastor Tony Alamo explain all the criminals who sire or give birth to normal healthy children then?

08-07-2002, 03:34 PM	#10
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	QofS, Tony Alamo isn't really 'mainstream conservative Christian' ...but anyway, I don't think he's saying God supernaturally strikes babies of parents who sin in certain ways with defects. I think he's saying that certain behaviors entail certain risks of undesirable consequences - and that that's why God said don't engage in them. Since he seems to think all birth control is sinful, that would include any birth defects that occur as a result of having been on birth control or being on it but getting pregnant anyway. I hope you can see that's very different from saying that if you sin in any way, God is going to strike down your babies. It's more like saying - you ate too much candy and you got cavities - well, your Dentist did try to warn you...not, your Dentist decided to set your house on fire because you didn't listen to his advice. The latter was how the post earlier came across to me. I don't even think Tony Alamo is saying that. But it's hard to tell without more of the article. Could you give the URL so I can see what he means by "such" marriages? Why did I even post on this thread...I don't know that many people here even care whether they are misrepresenting Christians or not... love Helen

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