kctan

Quote from copernicus
Taoism is considered defunct ?

By who ?

Taoism is still alive & kicking today as it is 2000+ yrs ago.

Wanna bet ?

Boshko

"Confucianism, as Kong Zi intended it, was a human-centered political and social philosophy."
Well not human-centered in any kind of remotely egalitarian sense, hence the emphasis on "gentlemen" (espite some slightly more populist bits in Mencius)

"It was atheist to the core."
There's a good handful of references to "Heaven" in the Analects and other supernatural things, but they're pretty peripheral.

"In Medieval times it got mixed up with Legalism, a facist philosophy that advocated the police be so nasty that citizens would fear them more than invading soldiers, and the result was the authoritarian, control-oriented political philosophy we all know today."
This is a bit of a misrepresentation, Confucianism was always highly inegalitarian and the Analects say that the people having "confidence" in the government is more important than them having enough to eat. I haven't gotten to the legalist segment of my course in Classical Chinese Philosophy so I can't comment on that very well...

"Confucians emphasized logic and rationality."
No not really, Confucian texts overflow with bald assertions unsupported with any kind of rational backing. The Mohists were far more tied to rational reasoning.

LianaLi

Actually, the hybrid between Confucian and Legalist priciples happened during the Han dynasty, around 200s BC, if I remember the dates right. The Han intesnsely disliked the severe Legalist practices of the Qin dynasty, and as a response, shifted over to Confucian teachings and principles for their governemnt. Supposedly, although many of their laws and such are Legalist in flavoring.

IMHO, everyone in any Chinese Dynasty likes to use Confucianism as justification for their government, and Confucianism has little to no practical value when it comes to ruling. Since that was a fairly strong statement, I'm going to repeat- the past statement is only an opinion. I THINK Confucianism sucks, it's far too altruistic a doctrine. I much prefer Legalism, if you're going to attempt to rule.

Of course, I have a highly slanted view of Chinese doctrines and how they relate to history. The professor of my class of Chinese "history" focuses primarily on primary sources like the Analects, the Dao de Jing, and major thinkers of each Chinese Dynasty who base their works on previous Classics, like Zhu Xi. What he forgets to realize is that the students have almost NO concept of Chinese history (What? The Chinese had gun power THAT early and never really developed weapons for it, when they had steel too?!) and that the documents/philosophies were written in response to certain events which he never really talks about. It disgusts me.

For example, from my understanding, the anti-gain writtings of Confucius and his followers were written in response to the power-grabbing monarchs of the Warring States age, but he never really emphasizes that point. And I would be deeply curious to see just how far the merchants (who had most of the power, imho) got away with stuff under governments based on Confucianism and Legalism, both of which frowned deeply on trade. And would that anti-trade sentiment be the root of the xenophobic response of the Chinese to "imported" doctrines? Buddhism was frequently persecuted in China for several centuries, but why did the scholars who wrote against it percieve it as such a strong threat? So was xianity, but I'll be writing a paper about that by next week. And how DID Daoism contribute to the developement of "western" sciences in China?

I've missed so much in that class. Anyways. Climbing down from the soap box. I'm going to read the text he gave us on Chinese history, which he never talks about over x-mas break. Right now, I need to focus on organic chem and other finals!


-Liana
[edited because, well, I'm too lazy to run this through MSWord's spell check capabilities]

[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: LianaLi ]</p>

kctan

It is not Confucianism itself per se which the rulers of each dynasty uphold. Its an amalgation of Confucianism (Ru Jia) & Legalist (Fa Jia) with much interpretations & revision thru students of Confucianism like Xun Zi and company.

The Confucianism of the Analect & the confucianism of what is actually practiced are two different stories. Just like you can't relie 100% upon theory to work in practicality.

I've no authority to say this until I lookup some text books but from my gist, its mostly how other invaders usually ended up embracing the chinese way of life that may give rise to this doctrine of upholding local thoughts & rejecting foreign ones.

Buddhism as a foreign product was much rejected in its infancy is due to its view of lowering the value of humans & our current life much like xianity which teaches that we are like scums & that we should not hold our current life dear but should view it as dirt. The chinese view to life have always been that its the greatest gift we could have & that those who died are to be mourned & honour as though they are still alive. Of course there is also the upholding local & rejecting foreign thoughts above. Later, buddhism after adopting local favours & such gained prominence & became one of the 3 main stream of religions in China.

Xianity is a totally different story as compared to Buddhism.

The first trace of xianity in China IIRC happens during the reign of Yuan (Mongols), they were a side stream of the xianity cult & die off when the mongols lost power.

The second intrusion of Xianity happened somewhere during the Ming Dynasty (somewhere near the end before the start of Qing Dynasty) when Jesuit missionaries bribed the coastal authorities using foreign goods & obtained passage inside into China but still limited to the coastal areas. Using the Analect, they twisted it left & right so that xianity appeared as though it collaborates with it.

The florishing start grew to a stop later when the RCC disolved the Jesuits & forbid local favours which are being adopted into the then practiced xianity caused alot of trouble & also trouble from the imperial officers resulting in decrees which are unfavourable to xianity & xianity was totally banned (Qing Dynasty). Foreign priests are deported while locals are either executed (yes, off with the head) or ordered to renounce of their ties.

Of course although it is decreed as a ban, sneaky missionaries still managed to smuggle themselves in disguised as traders & such as well as bribing coastal authorities & continued their proselytising resulting in a much, much slower growth then when it first started.

The third intrusion occurred after the devasting Opium War & the religious doors of China are forced opened by the guns of European imperialism. With the powers of european rulers behind them, the missionaries flock into this newly opened haven & xianity grew like never before.

However, the growth were to suffer a set back again when the Boxer Rebellion happened & growing awareness (somewhere after the 1911 revolution) of separating religion from education (yes they do have their campus crusades) also resulted in the demise of xianity but the real killer is of course the communist take over somewhere after WWII.

The trouble with xianity is not only that it's foreign in origin but once it discarded its disguise of collaboration with the analect, its racism, bigotry, anti-harmony, anti-government(as to the Qing's) etc... nature comes into view clearly.

There's also the culture crash of East vs West which xianity being part of the west introduced which are not acceptable in the eyes of the east like the intimacy of males & females being together in a room, forbidding the honouring of ones ancestors, filial piety issues etc...

Also missionaries once backup by the powers of european imperialism also decreased in quality & thugs & hooligans disguised as priests & such appears among those for real & created havoc by doing & making crimes. There is also the abuse of rewarding cases involving xians & non xians to xians regardless of whether the xians are right or wrong. All these were to culminate as the Boxer Rebellion resulting in the Qing Emperor having to payed millions upon millions as compensation to the Americans as well as the European Imperialists.

Daoism is looking at nature thru the eyes of nature, making one examine closely everything which is happening around us. It also gave rise to chemistry, herbalogy & such due to its teachings of immortality thru alchemy. Part of the rise of western sciences in China is also from xianity when the missionaries used it to demonstrate their religion's superiority in astronomy, physics, maths etc...

BTW Although gun powder is invented in China, its power is not as that as discovered by Nobel & so did not really kick off. There are indeed cannons which are used against the mongols whom once they conquered China, used it on their conquest further west & most likely it is this diffusion of knowledge which resulted in cannons becoming prominent in the west as they are more voilatile & hence a more intense arms race then China which is on the hold much more stablize. Dynasties changed but the people still remains the same.

Eudaimonist

What is it about Confucianism that is altruistic, and what makes it too altruistic? (I'm not an ethical altruist, so don't spare any punches. )

Why would you prefer Legalism if you were a ruler?

LianaLi

I'm going to keep this short, because I desperately need sleep.

Confucianism strikes me as far too altruistic about human nature. It, Menicus rather, presumes human beings are inherently good; as opposed to the idea that society enforces good/moral behavior. Plus, the ideal Confucian ruler supposedly rules by virtuous example strikes me as far too altruistic. In the analects, Confucius says "The rule of virtue can be compared to the Pole Star which commands the homage of the multitude of stars without leaving its place." (Analects, 2.2) They presume people will follow a virtuous example set before them, simply because it's good. I'm a bit more cynical than that, and say that people will follow rules, if they know there are punishments when the rules are broken.

Legalism atleast sets up a framework for a governement to operate inside. Laws are set, with specific punishments for their violations. As far as I've read, I haven't seen any sort of operating framework for government within the documents I've read about Confucianism.

-Liana

Eudaimonist

Oh, so your problem isn't with altruism at all, but with leading by example rather than force. You think people aren't naturally motivated to be altruistic, and in fact may be repulsed by altruism, and so the stick is required to keep them in line.

LianaLi

Exactly. People aren't going to be motivated to achieve at the levels which Confucianism sets for them, unless there's somebody behind them ready to swing the stick straight back into the their knees.

-Liana

Vorkosigan

(What? The Chinese had gun power THAT early and never really developed weapons for it, when they had steel too?!)

This is a long-time western canard. The earliest datable cannon in China is 1288, the earliest firearms at least a century before that, gunpowder in sufficiently powerful form to propel a projectile dates from a century or so before that. Gunpowder bombs and other devices are equally old. You can look it all up in Needham.

Michael

Gurdur

Um. Pardon me, but I think this view is incorrect.

My own view would be:
Altruism is an inbuilt tendency in human genetics (put very briefly).
The capacity to which it is evinced depends on a whole horde of factors, including individual socialization, social history, individual genetics, individual cognition etc.

The problem is not that "people are not naturally altruistic", the problem is rather that it is often commonly recognized that there are such things as common social obligations, binding on all members of a society, and also that there are individuals who will cheat on obligations if they can, and that therefore compliance to fulfillment of such social obligations is subject to enforcement to prevent cheating by any individuals.

Regards,
Gurdur the stern Confucianist