Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mr. Toodles · 09-02-2002, 06:33 AM

As i understand it, to pray is to ask or thank god(or gods) for something.
I have heard of a divine plan that god made. Is this plan a pre-ordained sequence of events or something else? If it is the former, than if praying to get something not a foolish waste of time? If god has planned for you to get it than you will, if he has not than there is no point in praying. BUT, if god has planned everything has he not planned for your prayers? So is it you choise at all?

Ojuice5001 · 09-02-2002, 08:04 AM

[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: Elric of Melnibone ]</p>

Ojuice5001 · 09-02-2002, 08:07 AM

I think the best way to look at it is to ask how humans plan for that which they rule over, or their own lives, etc. It usually goes like this: The large events are planned out thoroughly, and something has to be a very high priority to interfere with a large event. But small events are controlled much less by the plan, except insofar as they interfere with the large-scale aspects of the plan. It's like the fact that if you're a private in the Vietnam War, you can't suggest a radically different strategy that you hope will end the war quicker, but you can ask for a three-day pass and hope that the request will be granted.

In the same way, you cannot pray that Jupiter or Jehovah will change their minds about who should win national elections, but they might listen to a prayer about getting a new job. This would suggest that praying for minor advantages for yourself and your family is not a "petty," inferior use of prayer (as some people think), but in actuality the best one around.

Elric of Melnibone (originally Ojuice5001)

echidna · 09-03-2002, 02:28 PM

Apologies to the other regular who I am plagiarising (consider it sincere flattery) :

Prayer + aspirin -> cures a headache
Prayer + 3 bucks -> buys a hamburger

Wrong forum BTW, maybe MRD.

Vibr8gKiwi · 09-03-2002, 02:40 PM

When believers say they're going to pray for you, I don't quite understand what they think they are accomplishing. From their beliefs I don't see that they would believe it would help. Supposedly I have "free will" to be how I am and God wouldn't infringe on that to grant some groveling follower's prayer that I be different than I am.

Vesica · 09-04-2002, 09:51 AM

It seems we are only focusing on prayer as a request here.

As far as that goes, I have heard it explained as 'asking is nice as is saying thanks!'. Yes Christian theology teaches that God already knows what's going to happen anyway etc. I have always considered this aspect of prayer an excercise in humility.

As for people 'praying for you', I have no idea what they are praying for exactly. They may be praying you realize your delusion or decide not to burn in hell or whatever. Hopefully they are praying that they will be an excellent manifestation of thier beliefs and be a good supportive and kind human towards you thus living thier faith.....However I doubt most of them mean it this way. When I have 'prayed' for people that don't believe about some issue or hardship in thier life I normally pray that they will have wisdom about the decisions they are having to make about said issue, that they will have peace about those choices and they will have the support and caring they need from those around them, including me. Does this do anything?? Maybe not....does it harm me or anyone else to mediatate on my relationship with this person and ways to be supportive? No.

The biggest single function for prayer in many belief systems is to commune with the divine and achieve personal growth or enlightenment...But this is a private personal kind of thing that isn't very fun to debate about.

Coragyps · 09-04-2002, 10:02 AM

This thread is now in Misc. Religious Discussions.

Starboy · 09-04-2002, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vibr8gKiwi:
<strong>When believers say they're going to pray for you, I don't quite understand what they think they are accomplishing. From their beliefs I don't see that they would believe it would help. Supposedly I have "free will" to be how I am and God wouldn't infringe on that to grant some groveling follower's prayer that I be different than I am.</strong>

When people say they are going to pray for you it is a subtle form of coercion. It triggers a natural social response to feel obligated to someone who is doing something for you. It is just another aspect of the aggression of Christianity. It is not a live and let live religion, since they will pray for you even if you ask them not to.

Starboy

exactamundo · 09-04-2002, 03:41 PM

A few days ago I watched a show about a little girl that had fallen out a 2nd floor window and was badly injured. The family was a Christian family that set in motion prayer circles for their daughter. The little girl recovered from her injuries and the family attributed this to their prayers. I wondered why if they believed in prayer so strongly, they bothered to take her to the hospital in the 1st place. I also wondered where they thought their deity was when the little girl fell from the window and why did (he, she,it)not prevent the little girl from falling.

It is sure funny how this deity will kill and maime some children but will heal others.

I would also like to see this deity do a really obvious healing like replace a person arm or leg that has been severed instead of just getting rid of some people's tumors and cancers. Then I might believe such nonsense until then I think I will leave the praying to the Christian sheep.

typical illogical Christian thinking.

Vesica · 09-06-2002, 08:44 AM

StarBoy-

Is the problem that they tell you they will pray for you when you have said not to?

Or are you actually saying that you have a right to tell me what thoughts to think and what I can and can not do in private, on my own time?? Even if you see prayer as a pointless psychological plecebo you object to that other person making themselves feel better and like they did something? Are you doing anything to relieve thier cognitive distress or just getting mad at them for doing after you told them it was stupid?!

Just checking...

09-02-2002, 06:33 AM	#1
Mr. Toodles New Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Dubai Posts: 4	Gods plan VS Prayer As i understand it, to pray is to ask or thank god(or gods) for something. I have heard of a divine plan that god made. Is this plan a pre-ordained sequence of events or something else? If it is the former, than if praying to get something not a foolish waste of time? If god has planned for you to get it than you will, if he has not than there is no point in praying. BUT, if god has planned everything has he not planned for your prayers? So is it you choise at all?

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09-02-2002, 08:04 AM	#2
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: Elric of Melnibone ]</p>

09-02-2002, 08:07 AM	#3
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	I think the best way to look at it is to ask how humans plan for that which they rule over, or their own lives, etc. It usually goes like this: The large events are planned out thoroughly, and something has to be a very high priority to interfere with a large event. But small events are controlled much less by the plan, except insofar as they interfere with the large-scale aspects of the plan. It's like the fact that if you're a private in the Vietnam War, you can't suggest a radically different strategy that you hope will end the war quicker, but you can ask for a three-day pass and hope that the request will be granted. In the same way, you cannot pray that Jupiter or Jehovah will change their minds about who should win national elections, but they might listen to a prayer about getting a new job. This would suggest that praying for minor advantages for yourself and your family is not a "petty," inferior use of prayer (as some people think), but in actuality the best one around. Elric of Melnibone (originally Ojuice5001)

09-03-2002, 02:28 PM	#4
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	Apologies to the other regular who I am plagiarising (consider it sincere flattery) : Prayer + aspirin -> cures a headache Prayer + 3 bucks -> buys a hamburger Wrong forum BTW, maybe MRD.

09-03-2002, 02:40 PM	#5
Vibr8gKiwi Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: CA, USA Posts: 543	When believers say they're going to pray for you, I don't quite understand what they think they are accomplishing. From their beliefs I don't see that they would believe it would help. Supposedly I have "free will" to be how I am and God wouldn't infringe on that to grant some groveling follower's prayer that I be different than I am.

09-04-2002, 09:51 AM	#6
Vesica Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sunny FLA USA Posts: 212	It seems we are only focusing on prayer as a request here. As far as that goes, I have heard it explained as 'asking is nice as is saying thanks!'. Yes Christian theology teaches that God already knows what's going to happen anyway etc. I have always considered this aspect of prayer an excercise in humility. As for people 'praying for you', I have no idea what they are praying for exactly. They may be praying you realize your delusion or decide not to burn in hell or whatever. Hopefully they are praying that they will be an excellent manifestation of thier beliefs and be a good supportive and kind human towards you thus living thier faith.....However I doubt most of them mean it this way. When I have 'prayed' for people that don't believe about some issue or hardship in thier life I normally pray that they will have wisdom about the decisions they are having to make about said issue, that they will have peace about those choices and they will have the support and caring they need from those around them, including me. Does this do anything?? Maybe not....does it harm me or anyone else to mediatate on my relationship with this person and ways to be supportive? No. The biggest single function for prayer in many belief systems is to commune with the divine and achieve personal growth or enlightenment...But this is a private personal kind of thing that isn't very fun to debate about.

09-04-2002, 10:02 AM	#7
Coragyps Veteran Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Snyder,Texas,USA Posts: 4,411	This thread is now in Misc. Religious Discussions.

09-04-2002, 03:41 PM	#9
exactamundo New Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Western Canada Posts: 4	A few days ago I watched a show about a little girl that had fallen out a 2nd floor window and was badly injured. The family was a Christian family that set in motion prayer circles for their daughter. The little girl recovered from her injuries and the family attributed this to their prayers. I wondered why if they believed in prayer so strongly, they bothered to take her to the hospital in the 1st place. I also wondered where they thought their deity was when the little girl fell from the window and why did (he, she,it)not prevent the little girl from falling. It is sure funny how this deity will kill and maime some children but will heal others. I would also like to see this deity do a really obvious healing like replace a person arm or leg that has been severed instead of just getting rid of some people's tumors and cancers. Then I might believe such nonsense until then I think I will leave the praying to the Christian sheep. typical illogical Christian thinking.

09-06-2002, 08:44 AM	#10
Vesica Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sunny FLA USA Posts: 212	StarBoy- Is the problem that they tell you they will pray for you when you have said not to? Or are you actually saying that you have a right to tell me what thoughts to think and what I can and can not do in private, on my own time?? Even if you see prayer as a pointless psychological plecebo you object to that other person making themselves feel better and like they did something? Are you doing anything to relieve thier cognitive distress or just getting mad at them for doing after you told them it was stupid?! Just checking...

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