diana

In another thread, I asked David Matthews: "I'm curious as to why you feel atheists may be welcome in heaven. Particularly, how do you biblically justify this stance?"

David replied as follows:

The principle is contained in the passage Matthew 5:44-45, "I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust."

Given that God provides the physical blessings to those who hate Him it seems perfectly reasonable to suppose that God will also provide the spiritual blessings as well. Therefore, God can and will find a way to rescue these souls from eternal condemnation because God takes no pleasure in the punishment even of the wicked.

David, while it's most accommodating of you to--based upon this verse--extend God's physical blessings into the spiritual realm, the bible makes it very plain that certain things are required for salvation (hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized), and those who do not obey will be cast into the lake of fire where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

While I find your optimistic outlook refreshing, it appears to be in direct conflict with the basic tenets of Christianity. How do you explain all that "hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized" stuff so that it doesn't conflict with your belief that it's possible for atheists to be saved?

You appear to be blatantly ignoring the bits that make the Xn god sound less than loving. I understand why you'd do this: it's difficult to believe in a benevolent god who would willingly cast anyone into eternal torment. However, ignoring the nasty bits doesn't make them go away. What do you do with them?

d

Walter_Mitty

I too would be curious how DM justifys that belief, especially in light of:

John 3:5 & Mark 16:16

Regardless, Diana is correct in her observation.

First, you assume "we" hate "him". How can we hate, that which we lack belief for?

Second, are "we" wicked? Or does this offer extend to any non-Christian? If so, according to DM's dogma, heaven is going to be quite full.

Bokonon

I think the very problem is that there ARE mutually exclusive passages for access to heaven. Some say by faith. Some say by works. Some say by both works and faith. The 2 most important passages in regard to salvation through works...

Matthew
19:16
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

19:18
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19:19
Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

19:20
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Mark
10:17
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

10:18
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

10:19
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

10:20
And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

10:21
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

****

I've heard 3 primary counterarguments to this. None of which hold up.

-These passages say what is necessary is to DO those things. Since no one has always done all of them, faith is necessary.

It seems to me this is a very fradulent argument. Nowhere else in the Bible is Jesus given such a clear cut opportunity to lay out what is necessary for salvation. And he neglects to mention faith?

-Other parts of the Bible say different.

Well, duh. That's exactly the problem.

-If you notice, the man walks away disappointed, because he realizes he needs faith.

That's not what happens. Let us examine:

10:22
And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

He walked away disappointed not because he needed faith. He walked away disappointed because he was uncharitable.

HelenM

I'm watching with eager anticipation to see David bless those who curse him.

I hope I didn't miss it

love
Helen

Viti

We discussed this once a while ago....some denominations have a "Once saved always saved" belief....a whole bunch of us atheists were once "saved"

HelenM

David Matthew's 'denomination' (Church of Christ) does not believe "once saved always saved" - not only that but in strict C of C you have to be baptized by them or 'it doesn't count' and you aren't saved at all.

Anyway the catch with "once saved, always saved" - as you've probably noticed - is that Christians are apt to allege that if you totally reject God's existence now, then you were never really saved.

So, if you weren't once saved you're not always saved.

Speaking for myself I totally hate to see Christians [online, this tends to be] telling people who are sure they were once saved, that they never were. I hate to see people accusing other people of lying, without evidence. Based solely on theological presuppositions

I think it's very contrary to 1 Cor 13 (the 'love' chapter) to assume someone is lying, with no evidence that they are, except one's own worldview

love
Helen

Straight Hate

"The principle is contained in the passage Matthew 5:44-45, 'I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust'.

"Given that God provides the physical blessings to those who hate Him it seems perfectly reasonable to suppose that God will also provide the spiritual blessings as well. Therefore, God can and will find a way to rescue these souls from eternal condemnation because God takes no pleasure in the punishment even of the wicked."

That's what I loved about Christianity - it was always so fucking positive. It continues to be a great boost to my self-esteem!

P.S. Liberties aside, the point still stands.

P.P.S. Axe is sharp; for now.

diana

I think the very problem is that there ARE mutually exclusive passages for access to heaven.

Well, yes. I hold the same question up to any believer: how do you explain (fill in blank with verse that contradicts what the person has stated as his belief)?

DM appears to disregard (or perhaps write off as "uninspired" or "poetic license") far more of the bible than the average believer. I've always wondered how such people determine where to draw the line between what is "inspired" and what is the "well-meaning but misguided scribblings of believers."

Most go with what the vast majority of the bible supports and politely ignore the occasional verse that suggests a different doctrine. For this reason, David intrigues me, because he's just selected an arbitrary verse, extended it from "physical blessings" to "spiritual blessings," and apparently tossed the balance of the bible that says otherwise.

In short, he appears to have appointed himself as God's Quality Assurance. I await his justification.

d

David Mathews

Hello Diana & Everyone else,

Would it upset or disappoint you if God saved your soul on Judgment day and allowed you into heaven?

I can't and won't guarantee your salvation if you remain as you are. If you hate God, blaspheme God and demand hell I believe that God does have every right to grant your wish.

My suggestion that atheists will get to heaven by God's grace is predicated upon the existence of atheists who do not hate God, blaspheme God and demand hell for their rebellion. Such atheists might accept atheism by faith or upbringing and yet still live an upright and righteous life.

It seems quite possible that God could save these atheists by grace though they never knew Him.

But I must say that I cannot guarantee anyone's salvation. I am not in the business of making such promises to you or anyone else.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

Arrowman

Here we go again. Care to explain how an atheist (one who does not believe in any gods) can "hate God"?