seebs

Hmm. Well, there you have it, folks; I'm just plain illiterate. *sigh*

Sorry!

Anyway, my claim that this is not about trying to trick you into saying "us Christians" stands. Beyond that... Yeah, I am confused.

ybnormal

Can we now look for you to finally stop calling tdekeyser a sinner?

Or were you teasing him?

Several times now, and very nicely, he has asked you to refrain from denigrating him further with your Christian label, which he finds offensive. He is not a Christian, so he finds it rude, that a Christian who calls him his "bud", would not grant this simple request.

tdekeyser

ha ha, you guys are great. I just love this 'dance' ad YB calls it

Well, I was not really attacking anyone, I just knew that seebs and a few others were theist and I wanted to get thier perspective.

I see both sides now, but my view is that there is no good/evil or right/wrong.

Yes, I have a ethical code (personal one) and it is pretty liberal actually. I do believe 100% in not intentionally hurting others or for gain, but I have very laxed views on right vs wrong.

If animals do it, then I am not suprized that humans do it, hance it usually is not wrong to me.

Stealing, fighting, greed, killing, sex, indulgence, etc....

"sinner" to me is SOMEONE ELSE'S view of right/wrong and I am judged based on that conservitive view. Yes that can be offensive to me...

Ps> no one here has offended me FYI.

ybnormal

seebs, an argument can be made that we are all confused on one level or another at one time or another. All these words are precise, yet relative to one's perspective, all at the same time. Everything to me, seriously, can be absolute black and white in its simplest form one minute, and some mysterious shade of gray the next, depending on how close one looks and from whose directional experience one adjusts the lighting on the matter. Sometimes all of that depends on when one takes a look at it, what frame of mind one is in and how much emotional baggage is being lugged along. After a total of three hours sleep, I find myself in a completely different frame of mind.

Look friend, I never said anything about you trying to trick anyone. I have already said that I see no evidence that you have tried to see my point. There's nothing new with your point. I and most everyone else have lived with your point all our lives. There is possibly something in what I am saying that makes a new point. You say it's nothing new to you, but then, I've never seen the same case made anywhere, including on these boards, not that I couldn't miss it.

This is only as complex as it will be allowed to be. I ain't some expert technical writer. I do the best I can. So long as I feel that you are not at least trying to hear, then we'll both get caught up in the banter, which is all too much fun and seemingly nonproductive.

At this point, I see the simplicity of this whole thing as -- someone is saying that in their real world, your labeling them is offensive, and you answer, that it is in fact, not offensive, according to your model.

I can't think of another real situation, where a people allows a charged offender, to also be the sole judge of the same allegation, and that, is what you are attempting to do here.

Peace!

ybnormal

Originally posted by tdekeyser
If animals do it, then I am not suprized that humans do it, hance it usually is not wrong to me.

Exactly!


"sinner" to me is SOMEONE ELSE'S view of right/wrong...

Bingo!


and I am judged based on that conservitive view. Yes that can be offensive to me...

You win the lottery!

seebs

I think "most of the time".

I have tried to, but perhaps I've missed it.

Hmm. Well, could you fill out the steps by which you think the "you're a sinner" thing is supposed to draw you in?

Yeah. Because I think they're misunderstanding the label.

Not necessarily the sole judge, but it is quite possible to believe that, for instance, you are offended by a statement which is not itself offensive. "Offensive" is, unfortunately, a largely subjective thing.

If you watch my personal habits on this, I generally restrict allegations of sinnerhood to the universal, unless talking to sanctimonious prats. I think the claim is too easily misunderstood, and thus avoid it.

However, if I am able to convince you of an alternative, less offensive, interpretation, you'll be happier.

seebs

That's fine; we're not saying it's wrong to *you*.

If you think that rape and murder aren't "wrong", I guess you're gonna find a lot of "conservative" views in the world.

THE_LEGENDARY_HQB

"I am imperfect. I have done things in my life that I'm deeply ashamed of, that have hurt other people."
I THINK EVERYONE WOULD AGREE THIS DESCRIBES THEM.

"I AM A SINNER"

To paraphrase Gurdur:

Wrong!

"Sin" is not defined as making mistakes. "Sin" is defined as any act against God. Basically, Christian doctrine says that if I were to live a completely flawless life {assuming here that I'm not a Christian}, then steal a bag of gummi worms, I'd go to Hell, because God is perfect, and cannot allow "Sin" into Heaven {as if its some kind of physical entity}.

Since I see absolutely no evidence for the existence of the Christian God, or any god, I have never "sinned".

If you are going to assert that I am a sinner, it is up to you, as the
person making the positive claim, to provide evidence that there is, in fact, something out there to sin against. If you cannot do so, your assertion must be assumed to be false.

You cannot rebel against God any more than you can against the Easter Bunny!

Lades,
HQB

tdekeyser

The BIG picture to me says that we ALL are living sinless lives, because we are acting/doing exactly how we were designed. We grow, love, mate, bear children, steal, hunt, lie, play, greed, indulgence...

It is all exactly how mammals act and it is how WE act. We are perfect in the eys of god already. We are designed to be doing the exact things He wished and as He designed....right?

It is the humans that wrote the bible that want us to believe we are all flawed.

ybnormal

Exactly! Thank you, HQB! That helps immensely.

I look forward to any attempts of denial there.

Long ago, when I called myself a Christian, I was indeed, a self-identified, lowly sinner.

I now reject everything associated with Christianity.

It is thus a wholly impossible task for me to be a Christian sinner.

Anyone who labels me a "sinner" now, is refusing my legal right to opt out of Christianity.

They are thus infringing on my First Amendment rights.

And as for this argument regarding we-are-all-sinners THUS no one is "perfect":

The ONLY codes of conduct I recognize, and the ONLY codes of conduct I am bound to follow are the laws of these United States.

Anytime that I am not breaking these laws of man, I am being PERFECT.