Fiach

This post from the BBC is another explanation of my hypothesis that one cannot choose to believe or not to believe. The Brain circuitry that determines religious susceptability. Input only colours the particular religion adopted or the sect by local family and cultural influences. Please read the article or go directly to the site.

Fiach

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...re/2865009.stm


God on the Brain
By Liz Tucker
BBC Horizon

"Why do some people experience religious visions? BBC Two's Horizon discovers there could be a very practical explanation."

"Controversial new research suggests that whether we believe in a God may not just be a matter of free will. Scientists now believe there may be physical differences in the brains of ardent believers."

"Inspiration for this work has come from a group of patients who have a strange brain disorder called temporal lobe epilepsy. In a minority of patients, this condition induces bizarre religious hallucinations - something that patient Rudi Affolter has experienced vividly."

"Despite the fact that he is a confirmed atheist, when he was 43, Rudi had a powerful religious vision which convinced him he had gone to hell.

"I was told that I had gone there because I had not been a devout Christian, a believer in God. I was very depressed at the thought that I was going to remain there forever."

"Clinical evidence

Gwen Tighe also has the disorder. When she had a baby, she believed she had given birth to Jesus. It was something her husband Berny found very difficult to understand.

"She said, isn't it nice to be part of the holy family? I thought, holy family? It then turned out she thought I was Joseph, she was Mary and that little Charlie was Christ."

Professor VS Ramachandran, of the University of California in San Diego, believed that the temporal lobes of the brain were key in religious experience. He felt that patients like Rudi and Gwen could provide important evidence linking the temporal lobes to religious experience."

"So he set up an experiment to compare the brains of people with and without temporal lobe epilepsy. He decided to measure his patients' changes in skin resistance, essentially measuring how much they sweated when they looked at different types of imagery.

What Professor Ramachandran discovered to his surprise was that when the temporal lobe patients were shown any type of religious imagery, their bodies produced a dramatic change in their skin resistance.


The activity of specific neural circuits makes these patients more prone to religious belief Prof VS Ramachandran, University of California "We found to our amazement that every time they looked at religious words like God, they'd get a huge galvanic skin response." This was the very first piece of clinical evidence revealing that the body's response to religious symbols was definitely linked to the temporal lobes of the brain. "

"What we suggested was that there are certain circuits within the temporal lobes which have been selectively activated in these patients and somehow the activity of these specific neural circuits makes them more prone to religious belief."

"Scientists now believe famous religious figures in the past could also have been sufferers from the condition. St Paul and Moses appear to be two of the most likely candidates. "

"But most convincing of all is the evidence from American neurologist Professor Gregory Holmes. He has studied the life of Ellen G White, who was the spiritual founder of the Seventh-day Adventist movement. Today, the movement is a thriving church with over 12 million members.

During her life, Ellen had hundreds of dramatic religious visions which were key in the establishment of the church, helping to convince her followers that she was indeed spiritually inspired. But Professor Holmes believes there may be another far more prosaic explanation for her visions."

Head trauma

"He has discovered that at the age of nine, Ellen suffered a severe blow to her head. As a result, she was semi-conscious for several weeks and so ill she never returned to school.

Following the accident, Ellen's personality changed dramatically and she became highly religious and moralistic.

And for the first time in her life, she began to have powerful religious visions."

"Professor Holmes is convinced that the blow to Ellen's head caused her to develop temporal lobe epilepsy. "

"Her whole clinical course to me suggested the high probability that she had temporal lobe epilepsy. This would indicate to me that the spiritual visions she was having would not be genuine, but would be due to the seizures."

"Professor Holmes' diagnosis is a shattering one for the Seventh-day Adventist movement. Their spokesman, Dr Daniel Giang, is a neurologist as well as a member of the church.

Ellen White's visions lasted from 15 minutes to three hours or more - that's quite unusual for seizures
Dr Daniel Giang, Seventh-day Adventist Church
He dismisses the claims, insisting the visions started too long after the accident to have been caused by it. He goes on to say: "Ellen White's visions lasted from 15 minutes to three hours or more. She never apparently had any briefer visions - that's quite unusual for seizures."

"We will never know for sure whether religious figures in the past definitely did have the disorder but scientists now believe the condition provides a powerful insight into revealing how religious experience may impact on the brain.

They believe what happens inside the minds of temporal lobe epileptic patients may just be an extreme case of what goes on inside all of our minds. "

"For everyone, whether they have the condition or not, it now appears the temporal lobes are key in experiencing religious and spiritual belief."

Horizon: God On The Brain will be broadcast in April on BBC Two.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...re/2865009.stm

Published: 2003/03/20 14:19:25

© BBC MMIII

(This has been a news release from the BBC this morning. I present it and wll follow with some other information. Fiach)

Fiach

Is free will a real human property of the brain or is it an illusion. The vast majority of mankind feels that there is free will. We look at alternative choices and we pick one that certainly seems that we are choosing by free will. But I offer an alternative hypothesis.

We know that the brain is a very complex computer, a billion times more complex than your PC. Your PC is a series of circuits that are programmed with certain information that turn a + or – signal at its neuron before generating another signal to a million other neurons that may turn on + or – circuits. The result is that if you put a subject in your google search engine, the same way every time, you get the same set of web pages. Your computer has no choice; it gives the information in its hardware programming and soft-ware applications. The computer doesn’t choose anything. It gives the only answer that it can give.

The human brain is a complex computer with huge storage data of memory, association areas from experience, and a given hardware set of circuitry. When you pose me a problem, 2 + 2 =, my brain is going to come up with 4 every time. I don’t choose 4, my circuits do almost unconsciously. You flash a game card coloured red, and ask me what colour, I will answer “red” without obvious thinking. It is processed by circuits of which our conscious minds are barely aware.

Suppose you give the red card a number of times, you will say it is red each time. You don’t choose the word red. If you brain is given more complex questions, like choosing a motor car. Your brain will process the input, pull in memory data from its association areas including knowledge of motor cars. Some may think about speed, acceleration, safety, appearance, social prestige, petrol efficiency, comfort but do so instantaneously that the conscious part may not be aware. You answer quickly pops out, BMW or Rolls, or Jaguar. The decision is made by your brain with the use of data collected over years. I posit that if you could be given the same question to the same brain consecutively you would get the same output, answer. The problem is that we can’t do that. If we use a human subject, and ask the same question over and over, it will not occur. Why? Because each time you pose the question, it becomes part of memory and makes new associations. In short it is not the same brain as it was before you asked the question. Circuits and synapses occur when you read anything. My circuits and synapses change from writing this essay.

I alluded to this in a prior post on choice of belief in God. My point was that belief in God is not really a choice. We all say that one chooses to believe. I have been accused of choosing not to believe. But information now about brain neurophysiology and my personal life history suggest that even belief in God is not a choice. Some brains by their frontal networking and early input lead to belief or non-belief independent of emotional choice. My personal example is that I was raised to believe in the Christian God. I have Bible stories in school. As early as my second year in school, about age 7, shows that I already have problems believing. I had no advantage in unbelief. My mates all believed. But the Bible stories I hear and later read, posed moral and rational problems for me. They didn’t make sense. God’s actions didn’t make sense to me, but my classmates had no problems believing.

I struggled with trying to believe so as to be like my mates. But the more I tried, the more I failed. On my request, my mother arranged for me to have Saturday afternoon sessions on Belief in God, understanding the Bible, with a pastor who taught theology. He and his wife were very nice to me and we were lifelong friends. We would talk over tea and cookies for up to 4 hours and did that for 9 months. I took a year in an Irish Catholic school with their theology and tried to find reasons or even an excuse to belief. Yet I failed. My brain persistently rejected theologically concepts, while all of the other lads believed automatically and didn’t even think about it. The Lasses all believed until a college girl friend and my future wife.

This idea corresponds to whether one likes asparagus or not. I have a healthy appetite and burn up energy. I like most foods. Yet the first time I eagerly chomped on a sprig of asparagus, and Yuck. I hated it. My Ma and Da, brothers all liked it. I thought, “Maybe I got a bad piece.” So I took a second bit, and Yuck. I like Haggis, while my mother and one brother hate it. Haggis is the nationalistic loyalty food. Did we choose? Did I choose to not like asparagus when I chomped on the first piece expecting to like it? Did I choose to like Haggis while my Ma liked it?

Does my son like Rap Music because he is rebellious while I don’t like the sound of it? This applies to favourite colours, music, art, telly programmes. My point is that the human/animal brain is a very complex computer with incredibly complex circuits making my PC a relative amoeba compared to all of you. These complex programming process data/input and correlation of associations, analyses through the rational circuits, and out pops an unavoidable, maybe inescapable answer.

Freewill is an illusion. There is no free will, but a complex neural structure, a super computer give a certain answer based on its input and its memory/associations. It happens so rapidly and automatically, that is seems to be free will. Even when we seem indecisive, it may actually be the brain putting in extra association areas, and reprocessing the data through the frontal rational filter until it weeds out the less rational answers and leaves the most rational answers. We think that we “decided.”

Just my opinion, but I pose it for comments. I am a minority on this, as I have been all of my life.

Fiach

happyboy

go figure. all the religious pain, suffering, and misery is caused by wiring in the brain and nothing more.

happyboy

King's Indian

Hello, Fiach.

I'm always moved by stories like yours, perhaps because my own atheism has always been painless, even as a child. I won't take up the philosophical points raised*, as the topic "Determinism v. Free Will" is all the rage at the moment, on the floor above.
I will bring up one point, that touches on your story.
When you say that all our frontal rational filter weeds out less rational courses of action, it doesn't always seem like that. I'm sure we both know people, not only in religious matters, who seem to plump time and again for a self-destructive option. Sometimes we just can't see that our choice of actions, our beliefs etc are sometimes very unhealthy for us.
I accept that this may all be to do with our imperfect (but improvable) brains, but I would like to ask you, if I may:
How do you contrast your unbelief with your mates' apparent belief? It could all be down to the wiring, but perhaps, all the same, there were influences in your life (perhaps a friendly shoulder) that gave you the strength not to give up? When you say that your brain resisted theological concepts, I know what you mean. All the same, it didn't feel like that to us at the time. At the time, if you were anything like me as a littlun, I bet you could almost taste how wrong it was. I would prefer to think in terms of conviction, and courage, then put it all down to different wiring diagrams. Perhaps what allows us to make wrong decisions also allows us to stand up and take the right ones, in the face of some pressure.
I mean, I'm an atheist, but I still have faith in stuff (Like courage really means something, and we can improve our behaviour and so on). I don't think I really have any faith in the idea that we have no real freedom of action. I bet even some people who get these (terrifying-sounding) episodes that your link refers to don't all rush off to church.
Look forward to your reply.
Take care,
KI

*(sound of spontaneous cheering)

the_cave

In which case, all the pain, suffering, and misery PERIOD, religious or secular, would be caused by wiring in the brain and nothing more.

As would all the pleaure, happiness, and joy, whether religious or secular.

So why should you give religious experiences short shrift just because they're mental events? All our experiences are mental events!

I agree with you up to the "wiring in the brain" bit. It's the "nothing more" that I disagre with.

First, what's wrong with "wiring in the brain"? It's certainly as real as anything else. And it's at least in part what makes us human! Do you deny this?

Second, surely our mental events are not entirely self-caused. In which case, even non-religious experiences are not caused by the wiring in our brain "and nothing more". Many mental events are reactions to external stimuli, obviously.

Fiach

[QUOTE]Originally posted by King's Indian
Hello, Fiach.

When you say that all our frontal rational filter weeds out less rational courses of action, it doesn't always seem like that. I'm sure we both know people, not only in religious matters, who seem to plump time and again for a self-destructive option.

Remember that the brain circuitry is not perfect. Some brains cannot grasp calculus. Some can't learn to play the violin. Some have wiring to be poets and others do not. The Frontal lobe inhibitory circuits are wired by a number of genes acquired in our long evolutionary history. This frontal system is extraordinarily well developed in some people. It is generally effective with occasional failures in some, as effective as not 50-50, and some whose frontal systems are rather ragged (Fundamentalists, Criminals, and schizophrenics.)

Sometimes we just can't see that our choice of actions, our beliefs etc are sometimes very unhealthy for us.

And sometimes we score lower on a videogame today than we did yesterday. You must remember that we are not perfect. We are just good enough to have evolved this system for survival and adaptation. It never guarantees perfection. Our spinal columns are far from perfect. Our hands do not have a truly opposable thumb. Our vision is far inferior to that of an Eagle. It should be no surprise that our frontal logical screening filter is never going to score correctly 100% of the time. Even Ted Williams didn't bat 1.000. The greatest hitter in baseball could not top 0.500.

I accept that this may all be to do with our imperfect (but improvable) brains, but I would like to ask you, if I may:
How do you contrast your unbelief with your mates' apparent belief? It could all be down to the wiring, but perhaps, all the same, there were influences in your life (perhaps a friendly shoulder) that gave you the strength not to give up? When you say that your brain resisted theological concepts, I know what you mean.

I do attribute it to my particular Frontal circuits. While my father was an Atheist, he never discussed it with me until I was 18 based on his promise to my Christian mother. He didn't influence me. But maybe his gene codes did. I mention my mates because I doubted the Bible stories. I didn't have any negative experience with religious people. They were in fact quite nice to me and tolerant of my questioning, very much unlike a typical American small town. I was on a friendly basis with the Pastor. I was never abused in any way. I can't find any other reason for my Atheism except that my brain could not accept it, even as I wished that it would.

All the same, it didn't feel like that to us at the time. At the time, if you were anything like me as a littlun, I bet you could almost taste how wrong it was. I would prefer to think in terms of conviction, and courage, then put it all down to different wiring diagrams. Perhaps what allows us to make wrong decisions also allows us to stand up and take the right ones, in the face of some pressure.

Perhaps.

I mean, I'm an atheist, but I still have faith in stuff (Like courage really means something, and we can improve our behaviour and so on).

I don't want to prolong this, but I feel that I can explain courage on an evolutionary biological basis applying genetics, inherited and adapted brain circuits through selection.

I don't think I really have any faith in the idea that we have no real freedom of action. I bet even some people who get these (terrifying-sounding) episodes that your link refers to don't all rush off to church.

Many who experience temporal lobe seizures do not have classical NDEs or OBEs, but other types of behaviour, including unexplained rage and violence, hypersexual behaviour, self-destructive behaviour, bizarre hallucinations, and a long list of nearly anything stored in your memory disc. Many people who have had NDE's only with reluctance told me about them in confidence because they feared it was insanity. Many feared ridicule. Their marked reluctance in telling me, staring at the floor, crying, tells me that it took courage to admit them. I would speculate that they are the tip of the iceberg, and perhaps there are ten others who keep it secret for every one who tells.

Look forward to your reply.

I hope I presented my ideas clearly enough.

Take care,
KI

*(sound of spontaneous cheering)

Slainte Mhaith,

Fiach

Calzaer

If this is true, wouldn't atheism, being present in a substantial minority of the population, be considered a personality disorder?

Yes, yes, only if it interferes with normal functioning or causes emotional distress (these have to be present to make any diagnosis), but still, what would such an implication do to the atheist movement?

Fiach

If you look at the pupulation of the mentally ill such as paranoid schizophrenics, religiosity is so common as to be almost universal. I consulted on schizo patients as a Neurologist. I was given religious mumbo-jumbo by almost every one. I never met a schizophrenic Atheist.

Experiences show that your hypothesis is backwards. Religion is more like a mental illness in the form of a brain virus in religion prone individuals. Many are not affected severely enough to keep them from functioning but of those who end up in prisons and mental intstitutions chrsitians have a near lock on it.

A Christian church group in S. California did a study a couple of years ago, published in a local news paper from America. It set out to prove religion solidified marriage. They were honest enough to admit their surprise result. Atheists had the lowest rate of divorce at 19%, and Fundamentalists the highest at 49%. I think they only used families where both spouses were of the same or very similar beliefs, no mixed marriages.

You could argue that Theists and Atheist have differently wired brains that carry other behavioural differences, and that religion was not the most negative factor.

Fiach

Fiach

God on the Brain
By Liz Tucker
BBC Horizon

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...re/2865009.stm

Why do some people experience religious visions? BBC Two's Horizon discovers there could be a very practical explanation.

Controversial new research suggests that whether we believe in a God may not just be a matter of free will. Scientists now believe there may be physical differences in the brains of ardent believers.

Inspiration for this work has come from a group of patients who have a strange brain disorder called temporal lobe epilepsy. In a minority of patients, this condition induces bizarre religious hallucinations - something that patient Rudi Affolter has experienced vividly.

Despite the fact that he is a confirmed atheist, when he was 43, Rudi had a powerful religious vision which convinced him he had gone to hell.

"I was told that I had gone there because I had not been a devout Christian, a believer in God. I was very depressed at the thought that I was going to remain there forever."

Clinical evidence

Gwen Tighe also has the disorder. When she had a baby, she believed she had given birth to Jesus. It was something her husband Berny found very difficult to understand.

"She said, isn't it nice to be part of the holy family? I thought, holy family? It then turned out she thought I was Joseph, she was Mary and that little Charlie was Christ."

Professor VS Ramachandran, of the University of California in San Diego, believed that the temporal lobes of the brain were key in religious experience. He felt that patients like Rudi and Gwen could provide important evidence linking the temporal lobes to religious experience.

So he set up an experiment to compare the brains of people with and without temporal lobe epilepsy. He decided to measure his patients' changes in skin resistance, essentially measuring how much they sweated when they looked at different types of imagery.

What Professor Ramachandran discovered to his surprise was that when the temporal lobe patients were shown any type of religious imagery, their bodies produced a dramatic change in their skin resistance.


The activity of specific neural circuits makes these patients more prone to religious belief
Prof VS Ramachandran, University of California
"We found to our amazement that every time they looked at religious words like God, they'd get a huge galvanic skin response." This was the very first piece of clinical evidence revealing that the body's response to religious symbols was definitely linked to the temporal lobes of the brain.

"What we suggested was that there are certain circuits within the temporal lobes which have been selectively activated in these patients and somehow the activity of these specific neural circuits makes them more prone to religious belief."

Scientists now believe famous religious figures in the past could also have been sufferers from the condition. St Paul and Moses appear to be two of the most likely candidates.

But most convincing of all is the evidence from American neurologist Professor Gregory Holmes. He has studied the life of Ellen G White, who was the spiritual founder of the Seventh-day Adventist movement. Today, the movement is a thriving church with over 12 million members.

During her life, Ellen had hundreds of dramatic religious visions which were key in the establishment of the church, helping to convince her followers that she was indeed spiritually inspired. But Professor Holmes believes there may be another far more prosaic explanation for her visions.

Head trauma

He has discovered that at the age of nine, Ellen suffered a severe blow to her head. As a result, she was semi-conscious for several weeks and so ill she never returned to school.

Following the accident, Ellen's personality changed dramatically and she became highly religious and moralistic.

And for the first time in her life, she began to have powerful religious visions.

Professor Holmes is convinced that the blow to Ellen's head caused her to develop temporal lobe epilepsy.

"Her whole clinical course to me suggested the high probability that she had temporal lobe epilepsy. This would indicate to me that the spiritual visions she was having would not be genuine, but would be due to the seizures."

Professor Holmes' diagnosis is a shattering one for the Seventh-day Adventist movement. Their spokesman, Dr Daniel Giang, is a neurologist as well as a member of the church.


Ellen White's visions lasted from 15 minutes to three hours or more - that's quite unusual for seizures
Dr Daniel Giang, Seventh-day Adventist Church
He dismisses the claims, insisting the visions started too long after the accident to have been caused by it. He goes on to say: "Ellen White's visions lasted from 15 minutes to three hours or more. She never apparently had any briefer visions - that's quite unusual for seizures."
We will never know for sure whether religious figures in the past definitely did have the disorder but scientists now believe the condition provides a powerful insight into revealing how religious experience may impact on the brain.

They believe what happens inside the minds of temporal lobe epileptic patients may just be an extreme case of what goes on inside all of our minds.

For everyone, whether they have the condition or not, it now appears the temporal lobes are key in experiencing religious and spiritual belief.

Horizon: God On The Brain will be broadcast in April on BBC Two.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...re/2865009.stm

Published: 2003/03/20 14:19:25

© BBC MMIII

Posted by Fiach from the BBC.

Calzaer

I think part of the definition of a mental disorder is that it occurs in a minority of the general population. You can't have your consensus-reality-defining group be insane. Therefore, if either religousness or non-religiousness was going to be a personality disorder, non-religiousness would have to be it. Theoretically, it could almost make atheists schizotypal (but not really, I'm grasping at straws to do a thought experiment).

IF we could show that atheists have an axis I disorder (or even an axis II disorder... I suppose you could call atheism a mood disorder like cyclothymic if we just want to stretch way the hell out there), what would the implications be? Would atheists suddenly have MORE rights/protections under the Americans with Disabilities Act?

And what would that do to theists, if you could go up to one and say "I was born an atheist. God MADE ME an atheist. He wanted me to go to hell before I was even alive. How can your God be good and just if he created me an atheist so he could send me to hell?"

Another thought occured to me while I was writing this. A lot of atheists are on anti-depressant medication. Yes, alot of the general population is also on this medication, and I have no evidence suggesting that the percentage is any higher in the atheist community. Thus, I FREELY ADMIT that I'm commiting a Hasty Generalization fallacy. But it's all for the sake of argument. Suppose atheism actually is an axis II mood disorder, like cyclothymic or bipolar. Could some of the symptoms of this "atheism" diagnosis be comorbid with clinical depression? Thus, you'd have a higher percentage of diagnosed "depressed" atheists than in the general population. I also noticed from another thread on this board about medication (Once again, I'm committing a HASTY GENERALIZATION, please don't bar-b-que me) that the medication doesn't seem to work very well for several of the people here who take it. Maybe because they've been diagnosed with the wrong illness? They're atheist, not depressed?

Which brings me to ANOTHER interesting thought. What if we discovered that atheism could be "treated" with a drug, just like any other axis II disorder (or axis I disorder outside of Narcissim)? If taking this drug allowed you to feel what the theists feel in terms of spirituality and religion, would you take it? If so, would you take it for the rest of your life, or just to get a brief understanding of what theists feel before going back to being an "untreated" atheist?

**

Yes, I understand that this is all a bunch of useless speculation backed up by nothing so much as a fragment of a concept. I'm not seriously suggesting any of this is actually true. I like playing "what if...?" games, that's all.

...and they're out of control. Could homosexuals benefit from the ADA if homosexuality was shown to be an inborn genetic trait and/or axis X disorder? Or would the government whitewash it and force them all to medicate? Hrmm.

If being a POLITICIAN was shown to be a personality disorder....

*wanders off muttering nonsense to himself*