Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jobar · 10-10-2002, 06:31 AM

As I understand the most common Christian concept of God, he is both a free agent, and incapable of evil. Why? Is God unable to do something his creatures can do?

Keith Russell · 10-10-2002, 06:41 AM

Greetings:

Well, you could say that 'God' has us, to do 'His' evil for 'Him'...

...lol.

Keith.

southernhybrid · 10-10-2002, 07:18 AM

The God of the Judeo-Christian Bible is not incapable of evil. We have proof of that. For example, he asked Abraham to sacrifice his own son for him. When Abraham offered to do it, god said, and I'm paraphrasing, "nevermind, just testing you." I can't think of a much more evil entity then the mythological god of the Bible. And, let's not even go to the book of Job. What kind of a creature would do that to one of his followers! It's obvious that this particular god is pretty evil and all you have to do is read his mythology for the evidence.

So, when Christians say their god is not capable of evil, I have to ask how in the world are you defining evil?

It would seem there is a huge double standard concerning the Judeo- Christian mythology. Do as I say, not as I do.

Laurentius · 10-10-2002, 08:09 AM

Quote:

As I understand the most common Christian concept of God, he is both a free agent, and incapable of evil. Why? Is God unable to do something his creatures can do?

God's inabilities are only paradoxical consequences of the earthly limitations that human language and reasoning inexorably manifest.
(God dixit.)

AVE

Jamie_L · 10-10-2002, 08:28 AM

Actually, I think the rationalization goes something like this:

God's will defines what good and evil is. Thereore, anything God does, by definition, is something he wanted to do. By definition, that is good. Evil, by definition, only occurs when humans do something God doesn't want them to do. God's actions, according to this theory, are outside the definition of Evil.

It's only us silly atheists who have the nerve to say, "Uh, isn't genocide evil regardless of whether God wants it or not?"

Jamie

ManM · 10-10-2002, 10:00 AM

Jobar,
All that God does is done out of love. God is capable of inflicting pain and death (I assume this is what you mean by evil), but only does so to heal His creation.

Jamie_L,
Would you support genocide for utilitarian reasons? If you knew with certainty that humanity would die out unless genocide was committed, would you do it?

Jamie_L · 10-10-2002, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManM:
Jamie_L,
Would you support genocide for utilitarian reasons? If you knew with certainty that humanity would die out unless genocide was committed, would you do it?

If humanity was going to die quite soon, such that people I loved were going to die, or I was going to die, I might support the genocide.

If humanity was going to die off some time in the future... I don't know. I don't know if I would be comfortable killing people who exist now to save people who don't exist yet.

However, I don't think this is quite the same as my little quip about genocide. You propose a situation in which genocide is the only option to bring about good. An omnipotent god would never be in that situation, because, well, he's omnipotent.

Jamie

Keith Russell · 10-10-2002, 11:46 AM

Greetings:

Is 'genocide' the worst thing one can do, really?

I mean, one should not be racist, and one should not kill a 'race' (I hate even typing that word) as an 'excuse' to kill people.

But, it is not inconceivable that a group of people united by 'race', might also have enough hatred for another group, and the means to act on that hatred--that the threatened group might decide to defend itself, and wipe out the entire threatening group in the process.

By definition, 'genocide'--albeit in self-defense.

How would that be wrong?

Keith.

Mageth · 10-10-2002, 12:11 PM

According to Jehovah, he can:

Isaiah 45:6 (Young's Literal Translation): So that they know from the rising of the sun, And from the west, that there is none besides Me, I [am] Jehovah, and there is none else, 7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'

luvluv · 10-10-2002, 12:42 PM

Who says he can't?

Is there not a distinction between "can't" and "won't"?

10-10-2002, 06:31 AM	#1
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	If God has free will, why can he not do evil? As I understand the most common Christian concept of God, he is both a free agent, and incapable of evil. Why? Is God unable to do something his creatures can do?

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10-10-2002, 06:41 AM	#2
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: Well, you could say that 'God' has us, to do 'His' evil for 'Him'... ...lol. Keith.

10-10-2002, 07:18 AM	#3
southernhybrid Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: heavenly Georgia Posts: 3,862	The God of the Judeo-Christian Bible is not incapable of evil. We have proof of that. For example, he asked Abraham to sacrifice his own son for him. When Abraham offered to do it, god said, and I'm paraphrasing, "nevermind, just testing you." I can't think of a much more evil entity then the mythological god of the Bible. And, let's not even go to the book of Job. What kind of a creature would do that to one of his followers! It's obvious that this particular god is pretty evil and all you have to do is read his mythology for the evidence. So, when Christians say their god is not capable of evil, I have to ask how in the world are you defining evil? It would seem there is a huge double standard concerning the Judeo- Christian mythology. Do as I say, not as I do.

10-10-2002, 08:28 AM	#5
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Actually, I think the rationalization goes something like this: God's will defines what good and evil is. Thereore, anything God does, by definition, is something he wanted to do. By definition, that is good. Evil, by definition, only occurs when humans do something God doesn't want them to do. God's actions, according to this theory, are outside the definition of Evil. It's only us silly atheists who have the nerve to say, "Uh, isn't genocide evil regardless of whether God wants it or not?" Jamie

10-10-2002, 10:00 AM	#6
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	Jobar, All that God does is done out of love. God is capable of inflicting pain and death (I assume this is what you mean by evil), but only does so to heal His creation. Jamie_L, Would you support genocide for utilitarian reasons? If you knew with certainty that humanity would die out unless genocide was committed, would you do it?

10-10-2002, 11:46 AM	#8
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: Is 'genocide' the worst thing one can do, really? I mean, one should not be racist, and one should not kill a 'race' (I hate even typing that word) as an 'excuse' to kill people. But, it is not inconceivable that a group of people united by 'race', might also have enough hatred for another group, and the means to act on that hatred--that the threatened group might decide to defend itself, and wipe out the entire threatening group in the process. By definition, 'genocide'--albeit in self-defense. How would that be wrong? Keith.

10-10-2002, 12:11 PM	#9
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	According to Jehovah, he can: Isaiah 45:6 (Young's Literal Translation): So that they know from the rising of the sun, And from the west, that there is none besides Me, I [am] Jehovah, and there is none else, 7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'

10-10-2002, 12:42 PM	#10
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	Who says he can't? Is there not a distinction between "can't" and "won't"?

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