wdog

Amen,

intolerant of what? one can build a mosque anywhere in the US and probably the UK. can one build a non-muslim church in mecca? could we set up something like an infidel institute in medina? there are muslim and middle eastern studies programs all over the US and a mosque about 25 miles from me. I would gently suggest to your friend that the crusades were over many hundreds of years ago, I think their perspective is what is backwards. The west's laws and culture is based on rights and freedom, at least much more so than Saudi Arabia. What I am intolerant of is people who think we all need islamic law and culture.

I do think we need to keep our xtian fundies in check though, lest they get their little busy bodies too much into our government.

btw, remember this? <a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/739801/posts" target="_blank">http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/739801/posts</a>

and we are just as intolerant as they?

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: wdog ]</p>

Plebe

These sites give some of the knowledge I have of Islam:
<a href="http://main.faithfreedom.org/" target="_blank">http://main.faithfreedom.org/</a>

<a href="http://www.golshan.com" target="_blank">http://www.golshan.com</a>

I think originally the founder of Islam planned for equality between the sexes and a more democratic way of life for his times but after his death, the teachings were changed, added to and perhaps some were completely omitted by his successors.

Sadly, upon reading the Koran it is not too difficult to see teachings which encourage interpretation and behaviors which are not beneficial to humankind and foster needless suffering in the name of morality. Of course, there are fanatics and religious fundamentalists of any belief or philosophical system and because of this, these are the very people who have caused the most literal and harshest interpretations of religious systems shackling mankind to them and giving the false appearance that all who claim a specific religious heritage hold dear similar sentiments when in fact they do not and only outwardly comply due to the dangers inherent in living within a country where there is a theocracy.

I knew a classmate who was from Persia/Iran in 1979 who shared alot about living in such a culture and I have also read a few books at her urging about women who were born into Muslim culture, one was from Saudi Arabia and the other from Persia/Iran and I am well aware of how the religion and the interpretation of it rules all spheres of life/culture both public and private and this saddens me to know that it will likely not change in the Muslim world or the Hindu et al for many hundreds of years unless something unforeseen happens in earth history that would wake all of mankind up. This can be any number of things including the possibility of contact with life from other solar systems-NASA recently discovered a planet with atmosphere in a neighboring solar system for example and I'm willing to keep an open mind to this possibility as is the former Pastor and author of <a href="http://www.jovialatheist.com" target="_blank">http://www.jovialatheist.com</a> and the webmaster owner of <a href="http://www.ethicalatheist.com" target="_blank">http://www.ethicalatheist.com</a> who posted the article about this discovery there.

As with all religions of mankind there are good philosophies for living and relations with others along with the deleterious in Islam. The Mosaic laws are harsh and certainly do not easily allow forgiveness to the remorseful trespasser of them and the evolution of culture within theocratic governments does not allow for easy change towards the freedoms enjoyed where democratic republics fluourish.

I hope someday mankind can come to acknowledge that humans from previous eras lacking modern knowledge wrote the books of the largest of earth's religions and choose to live with the best offerings that modern knowledge has brought us continuing in a positive direction abandoning those things which would hold mankind back slowing progress.

What humanity needs in the meantime is the ability to interact diplomatically. While we grow as a species intellectually we also need to learn to accept those with differing belief systems with both sides choosing with deliberation not to commit war and destruction in the name of these differences and allow freedom for each individual to decide without threat of death to be either a believer or not.

The closest attempt at this was that of the founding fathers of the United States of America who founded it knowing of the realities of theocratic government and I can only hope that mankind will continue in the direction which fosters freedom of mankind and especially freedom of thought.

In closing, Salaam, Peace and Welcome to the freethought discussion forums at Internet Infidels!

Thor Q. Mada

Islam is a bad and backward religion, and the belief that there are moderate Muslims is just a beautifull story which we all like to believe, but it is not true. It is eyewash.
Peer pressure within the muslim community is huge and cannot be escaped from. Once a muslim, always a muslim.
The religion appeals to the poor and un-educated and will spread further. It is one of the greatest dangers ever faced by mankind. (A close runner up to the xian religion) A decent mosque, goes together with a school, and an hospital, and other social services. It is a full fledged self sustaining unit.
The religion is relatively young compared to the other abrahmic religions, and is now in their 14hundreds.
When xianity was in that stage , they were not exactly peacefull people neither. (they are not yet).
Anyway, with huge infiltrations in Europe, through the immigrant population, in Thailand, India, China, the Phil, the former USSR, etc, we are in deep trouble.
A fanatic religion infiltrated in a more or less tolerant and soft society!! A scenario for trouble.

Seraphim

"one can build a mosque anywhere in the US and probably the UK. can one build a non-muslim church in mecca? "

My reply : Do you know any Churches or temples in Arab Saudi or Mid-East area? Muslims will consider confess if non-Muslims built their worship places in THEIR country but if other country do not allow the immigrant Muslims to built at least a surau (small, house-like mosques), this immigrants will consider that country to be bias against Islam. Cute bunch of people, huh?

"I think originally the founder of Islam planned for equality between the sexes and a more democratic way of life for his times but after his death, the teachings were changed, added to and perhaps some were completely omitted by his successors."

My reply : Sorry, NO such mistake had happened with Islam. It is EXACTLY as it was when Muhammad was around 1,400 years ago. Check your history books (don't bother try to find any sites because you will not get a full-detailed account of Islam history online).
In the last 1,400 years, do you know that :

1. There never was a SINGLE Muslim country which was considered civilized WITHOUT any help from outside (non-Muslims)?

2. There never been a single society (non-Muslims) who embraced Islam only to live in proper? They always seems to have something bad happening to them in matter of years.

3. This "religion of peace" spread more by sword than by any means? Except maybe in China which have the LEAST number of Muslims.

"Islam is a bad and backward religion, and the belief that there are moderate Muslims is just a beautifull story which we all like to believe, but it is not true. It is eyewash."

My reply : I stop considering it as a religion but more toward a cult simply because it has ALL properties of a Cult.

I live in a Muslim country - Malaysia and since 2000 (after 9-11 Incident), I have noticed that my government starting to neglect the interest of Non-Muslims in its attempt to support Muslims. My PM for example been shooting his mouth everywhere he went (now his Deputy is doing it) about how the World should treat Muslims so they (Muslims) don't get upset. They don't seems to care that the country is getting labelled as a terrorist-supporting country now and that is bad for the business and unity of the people within. This is indeed a BAD times.

Howay the Toon

My opinion of Islam is much the same as my opinion of Christianity.

Its a bunch of people who are apparently content to believe in some seriously weird shit as true without a single good reason. I don't begin to understand either of them.

Answerer

Dreamer, just a piece of advice, if you want people to respect Islam, you must get your brethens to fight terrorists and extreme views, 'talk' or plain words alone won't solve anything or convince anyone.

galiel

This whole discussion is misdirected, in my opinion. Comparing religions is, for rational people, like comparing guns is to a person facing a firing squad. Who cares which followers of religion happen to be more violent this time aroundthan the other was last time around?

The real problem is organized religion in the first place. The real problem is a world filled with people who are superstitious, who make decisions effecting others based on the entrails of a goat, or the orders of a priest, or the subjective interpretations of cryptic holy writings, or the collective hallucinations of messages from god/angels/demons/aliens/Elvis.

The real battle for the survival of the human species is not Christianity-vs-Islam, or Hinduism-vs-Islam, or Judaism-vs-Islam, or Christianity-vs-Judaism, or Hinduism-vs-Buddhism, or Shintoism-vs-Confusianism. Nor is it capitalism-vs-communism or socialism, or libertarianism-vs-everyone else.

The real battle for the survival of the human species is rationalism-vs-emotionalism, science-vs-superstition, critical thinking-vs-dogma, self-determination-vs-dictates from above, skepticism-vs-a culture of blind faith, democracy-vs-authoritarianism, freedom of thought-vs-repression of heresy.

The real battle is progress-vs-regress.

Since, in every case, organized religion, as an institution (I'm not singling out individual worshippers), is on the side of emotionalism, superstition, dogma, dictates from above, a culture of blind faith, authoritarianism, and repression of heresy, it follows that religion is the enemy of progress and the perpetuation of organized religion is anithetical to the perpetuation of the human species.

Peace on earth will only happen, to horribly mangle Voltaire, when the last religious leader is, metaphorically, strangled by his or her own entrails.

[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: galiel ]</p>

dangin

As a moderator, I don't know if I can allow you to advocate violence like this. Oh wait, this isn't my forum.

hinduwoman

Dreamer, to me Islam is like any other religion. But as a Hindu I have serious problems with it ---

Koran does promote violence against other religions:
[47:4]
" So, when you meet , those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islam), until the war lays down its burden. Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam (i.e. are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire) or at least come under your protection], but if it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost".

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

That verse is not a peaceful one in spite of what apologetics have tried to make out. In India the Muslim clergy frequently urged the Sultans to exterminate the Hindus on the grounds that being not People of the Book we do not deserve to live. Only the thought of money and the fact Hindus did fight back stopped that massacre from happening.

Indian history is filled with tomes of massacres and inhumanities in the name of propagating Islam and they drew their inspiration directly from Koran and Hadiths. And when they try to deny it on the grounds that it is a good religion but its followers have misapplied it it pisses me off seriously.

Look at the blood price rate in your country ---
100,000 riyals if the victim is a Muslim man
50,000 riyals if a Muslim woman
50,000 riyals if a Christian man
25,000 riyals if a Christian woman
6,666 riyals if a Hindu man
3,333 riyals if a Hindu woman
Is this figure wrong? If not where did it get its inspiration from except directly from the holy book?

In modern age I see two problems with Islam:
(i) refusal to reform. Any bidah sends the ulema into hysterics and the slightest hint of criticism is grounds for execution.
(ii) Taking Muhammad as the perfect muslim. I have read the Hadiths and he is nothing more than a 7th century warlord who was unable to rise above the culture of his times. In some respects he was even worse sending Arabia into deeper barbarism. If you are a hadith denier, fine. But most muslims are not. Islam is doomed to produce terrorists, sexists and backward people as long as Muhammad is held up to a moral model.

[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: hinduwoman ]</p>

Primal

Islam: One of the most militant,ugly,backwards,hate promoting superstitions out there.

Of course people say it doesn't directly encourage violence in the Koran, and true it doesn't say verbatim "go kill atheists." The Hadiths are a different story though. And it implies this in any case, plus there's the tradition. More importantly Islam says it's ok to "defend the faith" from acts of agression, a very loosely used word. This can range from drawing a picture of Mohommad to critcism. Infidels are not allowed in certain Muslim cities. The Hadiths degrade women.


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