Biff the unclean

R Biff--- Of course you could take the time to explain your "levels"
There would be a ban width problem if I did that. But to summarize they revolve around your reveling in your irrationality and the fact that you have chosen to ignore the past five or six hundred years of human advancement placing yourself squarely in the middle of a "demon haunted world."

You will find nothing at all to explain your "feeling". Because none of those feelings can be analysed in any kind of scientific way. They just come from within. And we all know that don't we?
The "within" that they come from is your brain. They are rather complicated Electro/chemical reactions that our (and other) species have evolved. There is nothing magical going on there any more than your liver producing bile is supernatural.

I say you have let me down BIG TIME. You dodged it. Not me. You let all of us down. Admit it
All right, I'll admit what I did. Even thought it was rather mean spirited of me to do what I did. My only excuse is that, being Irish; I tend to have a very dry sense of humor.
I find it very humorous that you dwell on the "rational" to the point that you include the word in your "nom de web" while in your writing you boast about being irrational. Yet those things which you deem irrational are far from it. Your claiming that they were seems to be a phenomena that we see more and more frequently these days, especially about evolutionary based topics like brain function--self imposed ignorance by Christians.
When you spouted out that lengthy bit about "faith based" I was reduced to laughing out loud. When I set myself up as assuming that the "faith based" concept you were touting had some sane meaning that was just unknown to us I was only trying to goad you on. Never, for a second, did my actual opinion differ from Pyrrho's. I had hoped that by extolling you to explain how "faith based" was not utter stupidity you might come up with concepts even wackier.

Shake

R_BAC, I don't see how you can reject the things you have and still hold on to the faith. Some of things you say that you reject and question are some of the kinds of things that have led others here to give up their faith. While reading this thread I've been alternating between thinking that you were on the path towards losing faith or thinking you quite strong in it. Although the fact that you can't answer Andy's questions tends to make me lean towards my former position.

Another question for you to consider:How is an omniscient, omnipotent deity unable to understand the "trials and tribulations" of his creations without having to become human? Your handle here contains the word, "rational," yet I fail to see how being rational allows you to maintain your faith in the face of such questions, some of which you have posed yourself!

I must concur with PitW, I would label you a Christian, even though there are many Christians who would not.

Rational BAC

Shake --

-Well I am glad that someone besides myself considers myself Christian. Actually a surprising number consider me Christian. I think it was unanimous---maybe not. Will have to check back and see, but if not unanimous, then pretty damned close.

Which was the whole point of this thread. Not to explain the rational part which has been gone into on other threads. The whole point of this thread was that---

I was noticing that so many theists and non-theists (actually almost everybody) were saying I was not a Christian. And I thought to myself "Where did I go wrong to be so misunderstood?

And I realized that I had probably overdone the "rational" side of my Christianity and completely ignored the "faith based' irrational side------my core beliefs. And had definitely given a wrong impression to just about everybody.

And so the purpose of this thread. To state my core, irrational, faith based beliefs that really cannot be disputed rationally because they are based on irrationality.

And then see if anyone changed their mind about whether I was a Christian or not. And they did. I would state that the overwhelming opinion on this thread is that I have magically turned into the Christian nobody thought I was.

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These core beliefs (the part above) I compartmentalize as unshakeable, indisputable and definitely irrational. And will agree with anyone that they ARE faith based and irrational.
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The rest of the Christian religion outside of these core beliefs.---- I honestly do try to look at as an outsider looking in, trying to be as objective as I can be--just as if I were not a Christian. Just as if I were an atheist or a Muslim or a Hindu. I cherry pick what I want to, throw the rest away. Next month I may reevaluate the whole thing again. That part of it seems to be a very rational and objective way to look at the Bible. (But not going to get into that one again---------so please do not take this last paragraph as an excuse to start the whole "rational" debate again. -----------

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The real subject of this thread is my admitted irrationality in my core beliefs and how I think that it is my core beliefs that really make me a Christian.

And you all agreed with me that I was a Christian. So I am happy now.

PS----------Be out of town for the next 5 days or so. Take care y'all.

Biff the unclean

Well I think you are a Christian because you say you are a Christian. I believe that a person should have the right of "self definition." I should add that I think Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and Adolph Hitler are all Christians for exactly the same reason.
As for "core beliefs" I don't buy that for a second. This is no different than any other "cherry picker." This isn't the "core" of classic Christianity it's the "remainders table." For most of the history of Christianity this "core" would bring you to torture and death.
The assertion that beliefs that are irrational cannot be refuted by the rational is ridiculous. The admission that the belief is irrational already refutes it in a rational fashion.

Rational BAC

I'M BAACK----

But really do not have much time right now to post.

Bringing this particular thread up because it does fascinate me and the essence of it must infuriate atheists.

I really thought that some of the preceding "scientific" explanations of love were almost laughable.

Love of mate. Love for your parents. Love for your children. Love for your cat or your dog. Love of a beautiful sunset or sunrise, love of a beautiful piece of music. ------------------and love of God, love of Jesus Christ---------

Can any of these things be defined in any kind of "scientific sense" --- Really? How do we really separate ourselves from the rest of the living species- on Earth--------except for our indescribably very complex, very sublime, and in essence, very simple, and really not subject to accurate scientific scrutiny----------what is ----the essence of ---------LOVE


Can love be scientifically analysed to the very molecule and gene factor or chromosome factor, or bursts of chemical and electrical activity in the brain, and whatever else the scientists of this world come up with----------

----------- to try and explain these very emotional and very internal things that happen to every damned body and his brother since the beginning of time?

I do not think so myself.

I think that there are spiritual things, many very good spiritual happenings that happen to everyone on Earth . If you live long enough, you will realize that and throw away your microscopes (at least for some things) and just accept that there are some things we really cannot explain.

And just enjoy-----

Rational BAC

Not to get too critical here, but you do know that------


Your previous responses really sucked, at least to anyone halfway alive. Or possibly to anyone over the age of 25.

mike_decock

If you want to find out about the biochemistry of love, there's plenty of websites and books devoted to the subject. Perhaps the folks in the Science and Skepticism forums would be better informed.

With just a few google searches, I found a pretty good article on the topic:

Learning Series: The Brain And Emotions

-Mike...

CaptainOfOuterSpace

The love of Jesus Christ cannot be defined scientifically because it does not exist. In some cases, the love of Jesus Christ can easily be identified as a mental illness. Other than that, what exactly is the trouble with defining your love for your parents, your mate(s), or your dog? You value the time you have spent with them; they have had an impact on your life; you are sexually attracted to some of them; and you have a personal desire to continue your relationship with them. What else is love?

Of course, some people choose to overmystify love because a sense of mystery often heightens the emotional experience of love. But this certainly doesn't mean that love is supernatural and cannot be completely explained by scientific processes like biochemistry.
How arrogant of you to think that no other animal is capable of experiencing love. How do you know that your dog doesn't love you back? How do you know that baby animals love their parents any less than you do yours?

We separate ourselves from other species by our superior problem-solving skills and our vastly superior consciousness. There's no evidence that the emotion of love has anything to do with either. In fact, love often hinders one's ability to make conscious, rational decisions. This might suggest that lower animals feel love much more strongly than we do.
Yes.
I'm not sure what your definition of "spiritual" is, but whatever it is, who says that "spiritual" things can never be explained scientifically? If we throw away our "microscopes," we might as well accept Jesus.

Rational BAC

Captainof------

One of the few times I will admit to being completetely wrong about something.

You are absolutely correct about the animals feeling love part. Not sure what I was thinking on that one. Especially with dogs----they probably demonstrate a much more perfectly self sacrificing type of love than we humans do.

(not sure about cats though)-------

---OK---Will give you cats too.

Bumble Bee Tuna

Well, if you want to be willfully ignorant of biochemistry and science, there's really nothing we can do to stop you. After all, the main purpose of this thread seems to have been for you to tell us about all your irrational beliefs, so acting irrationally within the thread comes as no surprise.

-B