Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 02-19-2003, 01:40 PM

Here's a documented religious legend that developed in 10 years.

http://www.errantyears.com/1998/nov98/001052.html

Layman · 02-19-2003, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
I suspect the latter, but that means that he is assuming that there is some historical basis to the gospels, which is the point that he is trying to prove.

You could ask William Laine Craig for a more exact reference:

But I'm asking you. You dismissed all of Sherwin-White's works on the sole basis of this purported position of his. It should not be too hard for you to tell me which pages you read, right?

Toto · 02-19-2003, 02:53 PM

As I noted on the other thread, I have not dismissed all of Sherwin-White's conclusions, or even most of them. His assertion that the Book of Acts should be treated as history is outside his area of true expertise in any case.

Layman · 02-19-2003, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
As I noted on the other thread, I have not dismissed all of Sherwin-White's conclusions, or even most of them. His assertion that the Book of Acts should be treated as history is outside his area of true expertise in any case.

You are distorting his position.

He compared what he knows of Roman history -- which certainly is his area of expertise -- with what Acts says about Roman history.

And you completely discounted it before not based on any alleged lack of expertise, but because of this unspecified reference to legendery development.

And I missed the page reference where you read his discussion about legendary development. What was it?

Toto · 02-19-2003, 03:30 PM

On legendary development:

A.N. Sherwin-White, Roman Society and Roman Law in the New Testament, Oxford U. Press, 1963, pp. 189-191

But I may have been incorrect in blaming this all on Josh McDowell. It seems that the addle-brained Lee Stroble, who found Christ after a life of hard drinking, has made Sherwin-White part of his "Case for Christ."

As noted here

Quote:

. . .Strobel quotes the work of A. N. Sherwin-White to show that too short a time passed between the time of Jesus and the writing of the records (the New Testament scriptures) to have mythologized Jesus into the recorded Christ. Since the records are reliable, then Jesus is Christ.

Of course, Sherwin-White's area of expertise is history and the work Strobel sites (Roman Society and Roman Law in the New Testament) is a study of Roman law and customs extant in the relevant period, not a study on myth creation. Sherwin-White goes to great detail to show the Gospels, Acts, and Pauline Epistles reflect what is known about Roman and Jewish society in the first century B.C.E. through the third century C.E. and, primarily, the first and early second centuries C.E. Sherwin-White's statement that not enough time elapsed to mythologize Jesus into Christ is not expert testimony (to borrow the legalized method Strobel uses), but, rather, is non-expert opinion (in the matter of myth). An expert on mythology, Joseph Campbell, makes a similar claim to Sherwin-White's. On page 162 of volume one of the great Masks of God series Campbell reasons, that is, logically supports, that a tale recorded in 1912, the "Legend of the Destruction of Kash", could be almost unchanged from its likely inception in the third century B.C.E. A story being retold, nearly in its original form from 2200 years in the past! By Strobel's and Sherwin-White's criteria that has got to be a true record of an event...but that doesn't change that the story is a myth.

Layman · 02-19-2003, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
On legendary development:

A.N. Sherwin-White, Roman Society and Roman Law in the New Testament, Oxford U. Press, 1963, pp. 189-191

Finally. And you read this section when?

Perhaps you could quote the relevant two pages?

lunachick · 02-19-2003, 04:00 PM

Baghwan Shree Rajneesh.

Died in 1990, his Global network is still flourishing, and apparently the ashram in Goa, India has the best dance parties and love fests. You can't get in there without having an up-to-date and clean STD/AIDS certification. His followers now refer to him as Osho - meaning nothing/silence/nothing - a name given to him by his followers during his lifetime. His philosophy appealed to middle class and reasonably well-educated hippy-types, and they gave Baghwan everything. Baghwan owned Texan ranches, several Rolls Royces and much more. Many believe him to be THE Guru of their lifetimes. Whether his legacy lasts or not is yet to be seen, but it's still strong amongst his followers. Anyone been to Goa?

Family Man · 02-19-2003, 04:05 PM

If memory serves, Nomad used to use Sherwin-White as part of his repetoire. I don't ever recall Layman using it.

Even if Sherwin-White said something along those lines, it doesn't mean that it's true. Scholars have been known to make mistakes, and we already seen plenty of examples where stories get blown out of proportion in very short order. We even have a name for them: Urban Legends. I think that if theists want to argue that 40 years is too short of time for myths to develop they need to put forth the argument instead saying Prof. So-and-so said it's true so it must be true.

Layman · 02-19-2003, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Family Man
If memory serves, Nomad used to use Sherwin-White as part of his repetoire. I don't ever recall Layman using it.

I've referred to Sherwin-White before, but never for this proposition. And honestly I don't recall having made any argument along the lines of 40 years being too short a time for any legendary development.

Llyricist · 02-19-2003, 04:51 PM

also, it's totally non sequiter against the idea that Jesus never existed at all.

In that case it could have taken centuries for the myth to develop, and they just decided to historicize it and put it 40 years in their own past. Quite safe from anyone saying, "I was there and never heard of him". Remember the fall of Jerusalem that occurred in the meantime

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02-19-2003, 01:40 PM	#21
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Here's a documented religious legend that developed in 10 years. http://www.errantyears.com/1998/nov98/001052.html

02-19-2003, 02:53 PM	#23
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	As I noted on the other thread, I have not dismissed all of Sherwin-White's conclusions, or even most of them. His assertion that the Book of Acts should be treated as history is outside his area of true expertise in any case.

02-19-2003, 04:00 PM	#27
lunachick Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NZ Posts: 7,895	Baghwan Shree Rajneesh. Died in 1990, his Global network is still flourishing, and apparently the ashram in Goa, India has the best dance parties and love fests. You can't get in there without having an up-to-date and clean STD/AIDS certification. His followers now refer to him as Osho - meaning nothing/silence/nothing - a name given to him by his followers during his lifetime. His philosophy appealed to middle class and reasonably well-educated hippy-types, and they gave Baghwan everything. Baghwan owned Texan ranches, several Rolls Royces and much more. Many believe him to be THE Guru of their lifetimes. Whether his legacy lasts or not is yet to be seen, but it's still strong amongst his followers. Anyone been to Goa?

02-19-2003, 04:05 PM	#28
Family Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Superior, CO USA Posts: 1,553	If memory serves, Nomad used to use Sherwin-White as part of his repetoire. I don't ever recall Layman using it. Even if Sherwin-White said something along those lines, it doesn't mean that it's true. Scholars have been known to make mistakes, and we already seen plenty of examples where stories get blown out of proportion in very short order. We even have a name for them: Urban Legends. I think that if theists want to argue that 40 years is too short of time for myths to develop they need to put forth the argument instead saying Prof. So-and-so said it's true so it must be true.

02-19-2003, 04:51 PM	#30
Llyricist Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Fort Lauderale, FL Posts: 5,390	also, it's totally non sequiter against the idea that Jesus never existed at all. In that case it could have taken centuries for the myth to develop, and they just decided to historicize it and put it 40 years in their own past. Quite safe from anyone saying, "I was there and never heard of him". Remember the fall of Jerusalem that occurred in the meantime

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