Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Half-Life · 04-21-2002, 06:07 PM

For class, I need to know why people are agnostics. My teacher wants to know why people believe that we can never know if God is real. His argument is: What if God came down and talked to us? Wouldnt that be a way to know he is real? What if he worked a full-fledged miracle and everyone witnessed it? that would be another way we can know if God is real. So, I guess the main thing I need to know is why you believe we can never know if there is a God or not. Thank you.

Viti · 04-21-2002, 06:10 PM

Because God never seems to do those things...if he did then Agnostics would be theists

Samhain · 04-21-2002, 06:15 PM

Mainly because there is no "rock-hard" evidence of the existence of any god(s). Some hold that they simply do not know if a god exists, since none of the so-called "works" of any god are proven or explained. Others (I believe atheist agnostics) hold that they "cannot" know if a god or gods exist, simply that it is not possible to know if such a god exists since we have not found anything thus far to prove either way, and if a god did exist, the god would therefore want us to not have reason to "know" that he/she/it existed and therefore made it impossible for us to know.

Viti · 04-21-2002, 06:24 PM

I don't think agnostics hold that it is impossible to ever know, only that it is impossible to make a determination based on current evidence and knowledge. Your teacher's argument assumes a change in this circumstance so it's not valid from what I can see.

It's like saying "What if we find a fully intact sasquatch corpse tommorrow...would you still say it is not possible to know if Bigfoot exists?" It's just silly

Half-Life · 04-21-2002, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LadyShea:
Because God never seems to do those things...if he did then Agnostics would be theists

But, agnostics shouldnt say that we can never know because IF God ever did those things, that would be a way to know. So, it isnt impossible.

Godless Dave · 04-21-2002, 06:56 PM

Half-Life, agnosticism means "I don't know", not
"I can't know".

SteveD · 04-21-2002, 08:03 PM

Half-Life,

I think you need to be clear about your definition of agnostic.

The definition I prefer is the one originally invented by Thomas Henry Huxley.

He explains it this way

from this website<a href="http://www.agnostichurch.com/huxagfaith.html" target="_blank">Agnostic Church</a>)

Quote:

Agnosticism, in fact, is not a creed, but a method, the essence of which lies in the rigorous application of a single principle. That principle is of great antiquity; it is as old as Socrates; as old as the writer who said, 'Try all things, hold fast by that which is good;' it is the foundation of the Reformation, which simply illustrated the axiom that every man should be able to give a reason for the faith that is in him; it is the great principle of Descartes; it is the fundamental axiom of modern Science. Positively the principle may be expressed: In matters of the intellect, follow your reason as far as it will take you, without regard to any other consideration, And negatively: In matters of the intellect, do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable.

I believe it is this last sentence that leads to the normal understanding of agnosticism. When faced with a lack of convicing evidence the agnostic would simply acknowledge that he doesn't know.

Steve

edited for spelling

[ April 21, 2002: Message edited by: SteveD ]

Autonemesis · 04-21-2002, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Half-Life:
For class, I need to know why people are agnostics.

So you have something to do for homework.

Quote:

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Samhain · 04-22-2002, 12:04 AM

A few excerpts I have on agnosticism...

Quote:

Taken from the Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy:

Agnosticism - The view that some proposition is not known, and perhaps cannot be known to be true or false. The term is particularly applied to theological doctrines.

Quote:

Taken from George H. Smith's Atheism: the Case Against God:

Agnosticism can either be theistic or atheistic.

The agnostic theist believes that in the existence of god but maintains that the nature of that god is unknowable...According to the religious agnostic, we can state that god is, but-due to the unknowable nature of the supernatural-we cannot state what god is.

Like his theistic cousin, the agnostic atheist maintains that any supernatural realm is inherently unknowable by the human mind, but the agnostic suspends his judgement one step further back. For the agnostic atheist, not only is the nature of any supernatural being unknowable, but the existence of any supernatural being is unknowable as well. We cannot have knowledge of the unknowable; therefore, concludes this agnostic, we cannot have knowledge of god's existence...

...Thus, for the agnostic atheist, the proper answer to the question, "Does a god exist?" is "I don't know" - or, more specifically - "I cannot know."

Just a little food for thought.

Half-Life · 04-22-2002, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Samhain:

For the agnostic atheist, not only is the nature of any supernatural being unknowable, but the existence of any supernatural being is unknowable as well. We cannot have knowledge of the unknowable; therefore, concludes this agnostic, we cannot have knowledge of god's existence...

OK, now, why can't we have knowledge of the supernatural? How does an agnostic know that God is actually supernatural? What if God is natural? Just a little food for thought.

04-21-2002, 06:07 PM	#1
Half-Life Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: A place in the Northern Hemisphere of Planet Earth Posts: 1,250	I am requesting some info about agnosticism For class, I need to know why people are agnostics. My teacher wants to know why people believe that we can never know if God is real. His argument is: What if God came down and talked to us? Wouldnt that be a way to know he is real? What if he worked a full-fledged miracle and everyone witnessed it? that would be another way we can know if God is real. So, I guess the main thing I need to know is why you believe we can never know if there is a God or not. Thank you.

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04-21-2002, 06:10 PM	#2
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Because God never seems to do those things...if he did then Agnostics would be theists

04-21-2002, 06:15 PM	#3
Samhain Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 7,735	Mainly because there is no "rock-hard" evidence of the existence of any god(s). Some hold that they simply do not know if a god exists, since none of the so-called "works" of any god are proven or explained. Others (I believe atheist agnostics) hold that they "cannot" know if a god or gods exist, simply that it is not possible to know if such a god exists since we have not found anything thus far to prove either way, and if a god did exist, the god would therefore want us to not have reason to "know" that he/she/it existed and therefore made it impossible for us to know.

04-21-2002, 06:24 PM	#4
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	I don't think agnostics hold that it is impossible to ever know, only that it is impossible to make a determination based on current evidence and knowledge. Your teacher's argument assumes a change in this circumstance so it's not valid from what I can see. It's like saying "What if we find a fully intact sasquatch corpse tommorrow...would you still say it is not possible to know if Bigfoot exists?" It's just silly

04-21-2002, 06:56 PM	#6
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	Half-Life, agnosticism means "I don't know", not "I can't know".

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