Freethought & Rationalism Archive

KnightWhoSaysNi · 08-12-2002, 10:13 AM

Tomorrow afternoon, I intend to send another email to the Reasons to Believe <a href="http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/creation_update/Archives.asp" target="_blank">Creation Update</a> live webcast show. Here's what I plan to say:

Quote:

Dear RTB Staff,

I'd like to present some evidence that challenges some of Fuz Rana's statements from last week regarding chromosome fusion. Fuz argued that chromosome fusions or splits in the gamete cells will produce deleterious effects and infertile offspring such as the mule from a horse and donkey. According to some evidence (see my link below) this is not always the case. Let's take one example based on a study of wild Przewalski horses. These wild horses have 66 chromosomes while domesticated horses have 64 chromosomes. Despite this difference, the wild and domesticated horses can be crossed and produce fertile offspring.

Given that humans have 23 pairs of chromsomes and chimps have 24, with an evolutionary or common ancestry model, we can predict that there must have been a chromosome fusion event. And if we look at the evidence, this is exactly what appears to have happened. If we examine human chromosome 2 and the G-banding patterns, it looks uncannily like 2 chimp chromosomes joined together (see diagram below). As a creationist, how would you explain this?

- Jason

See <a href="http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoEvidence.html" target="_blank">http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoEvidence.html</a> and click on the section entitled "Comparison of the Human and Great Ape Chromosomes as Evidence for Common Ancestry"

(Below is a diagram showing the human chromosome to the left, and the 2 chimp chromosomes lined up on the right. Notice how the G-banding is nearly a perfect match. I know you obviously can't show this to your listeners, but if you can describe it somehow, I'd be grateful :-)

If anyone has some suggestions for improvement, please let me know.

Keep in mind that I have to keep my message relatively brief if they're going to answer it, so I can't add much more detail. If Hugh Ross or Fuz Rana answer with a detailed response, I'll discuss it here tomorrow.

[ August 12, 2002: Message edited by: Nightshade ]

WinAce · 08-12-2002, 10:47 AM

What I don't get about creationists is their total lack of common sense in this area.

It's undeniable that Chromosome 2 is fused--why do these charlatans continue to insist it hasn't?

A better way of explaining away this damaging evidence would be to say that humans originally had the same number of chromosomes (that looked the same) as chimps due to common design, but it was fused later on. This at least makes *some* sense, instead of just denying that it took place at all.

And no, of course I'm not a proponent of any common design hypotheses. They make no sense. However, if I had a religious agenda I'd at least try to maintain a modicum of respectability instead of acting like the clowns at AiG and Reasons to Believe.

theyeti · 08-12-2002, 02:02 PM

I suggest hitting them up with multiple examples of chromosome change. One good one is the canine family, which YECs usually consider one "kind" for the purposes of cramming critters on the Ark. Canines have quite a variety of karyotypes. See the following page for a list of karyotypes: <a href="http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/wayne2.htm" target="_blank">Molecular evolution of the dog family</a>. And here is another paper dealing with canines: <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=120634 02&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">The pattern of phylogenomic evolution of the Canidae.</a>

But it gets better (or worse, if you're RTB). There are actually karyotype differences within various species. Take the house mouse (please). Mus musculus domesticus is an interbreeding speices which contains several different karyotypes due to recent Robertsonian fusions, the same kind of fusion that resulted in one chromosome fusing from two in human ancestors. In Westren Europe, there are 13 different standard karyotypes. Along hybridization zones, there are many, many more karyotypes created by breeding between the standard karyotypes -- 24 different karyotypes can be found just in the Alps. There is extensive interbreeding among the various karyotypes, no evidence of serious reproductive barriers, and even YECs would conclude that these mice are all derived from a common ancestor (they're in the same damn species!). <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Display&dopt=pubmed_pubme d&from_uid=10504430" target="_blank">Here</a> are some of the many papers that you can reference on this.

Same story, different animal: <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=109371 94&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">Harvestman</a> (some sort of spider).

Same story, different animal: <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=108572 59&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">Weta</a> (some insect, don't ask me what). Here's <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=112915 37&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">another</a> insect of some kind with different karyotypes among related species, and even different ones between males and females.

Another example with mammals (I think): <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=948768 1&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">Waterbuck</a>. This is another case of a Robersonian fusion. I don't know what the hell a waterbuck is, but I'm pretty sure it's a mammal. The link to the full-text took me to the wrong paper.

<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=108286 14&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">Hamsters</a>. A whole bunch of karyotypes living in and around Iran.

<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=738941 1&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">Cotton rats</a>, <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=818259 5&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">shrews</a>, <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=968851 3&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">iguanas</a>, <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=119874 49&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">grasshoppers</a> (this one is interesting -- the de novo evolution of a sex chromosome!), and so on, and so on. All have intra-specific differences in chromosome number.

theyeti

pz · 08-12-2002, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theyeti:

Same story, different animal: <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=109371 94&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">Harvestman</a> (some sort of spider).

AKA daddylonglegs.

Quote:

Same story, different animal: <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=108572 59&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">Weta</a> (some insect, don't ask me what).

Mmmmm...weta. They have gigantic, plump grubs. I got to eat one in an entomology course years ago -- very rich, juicy, kind of buttery.

Quote:

Another example with mammals (I think): <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=948768 1&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">Waterbuck</a>. This is another case of a Robersonian fusion. I don't know what the hell a waterbuck is, but I'm pretty sure it's a mammal.

Yes, it's an antelope.

KnightWhoSaysNi · 08-13-2002, 05:10 PM

Grrrr!!!

They didn't address my message! Oh well...

To be fair, they do get a lot of emails during their show. I'll try the question again some other time.

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08-12-2002, 10:47 AM	#2
WinAce Beloved Deceased Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Carrboro, NC Posts: 1,539	What I don't get about creationists is their total lack of common sense in this area. It's undeniable that Chromosome 2 is fused--why do these charlatans continue to insist it hasn't? A better way of explaining away this damaging evidence would be to say that humans originally had the same number of chromosomes (that looked the same) as chimps due to common design, but it was fused later on. This at least makes some sense, instead of just denying that it took place at all. And no, of course I'm not a proponent of any common design hypotheses. They make no sense. However, if I had a religious agenda I'd at least try to maintain a modicum of respectability instead of acting like the clowns at AiG and Reasons to Believe.

08-12-2002, 02:02 PM	#3
theyeti Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Denver, CO, USA Posts: 9,747	I suggest hitting them up with multiple examples of chromosome change. One good one is the canine family, which YECs usually consider one "kind" for the purposes of cramming critters on the Ark. Canines have quite a variety of karyotypes. See the following page for a list of karyotypes: <a href="http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/wayne2.htm" target="_blank">Molecular evolution of the dog family</a>. And here is another paper dealing with canines: <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=120634 02&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">The pattern of phylogenomic evolution of the Canidae.</a> But it gets better (or worse, if you're RTB). There are actually karyotype differences within various species. Take the house mouse (please). Mus musculus domesticus is an interbreeding speices which contains several different karyotypes due to recent Robertsonian fusions, the same kind of fusion that resulted in one chromosome fusing from two in human ancestors. In Westren Europe, there are 13 different standard karyotypes. Along hybridization zones, there are many, many more karyotypes created by breeding between the standard karyotypes -- 24 different karyotypes can be found just in the Alps. There is extensive interbreeding among the various karyotypes, no evidence of serious reproductive barriers, and even YECs would conclude that these mice are all derived from a common ancestor (they're in the same damn species!). <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Display&dopt=pubmed_pubme d&from_uid=10504430" target="_blank">Here</a> are some of the many papers that you can reference on this. Same story, different animal: <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=109371 94&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">Harvestman</a> (some sort of spider). Same story, different animal: <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=108572 59&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">Weta</a> (some insect, don't ask me what). Here's <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=112915 37&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">another</a> insect of some kind with different karyotypes among related species, and even different ones between males and females. Another example with mammals (I think): <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=948768 1&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">Waterbuck</a>. This is another case of a Robersonian fusion. I don't know what the hell a waterbuck is, but I'm pretty sure it's a mammal. The link to the full-text took me to the wrong paper. <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=108286 14&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">Hamsters</a>. A whole bunch of karyotypes living in and around Iran. <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=738941 1&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">Cotton rats</a>, <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=818259 5&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">shrews</a>, <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=968851 3&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">iguanas</a>, <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=119874 49&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">grasshoppers</a> (this one is interesting -- the de novo evolution of a sex chromosome!), and so on, and so on. All have intra-specific differences in chromosome number. theyeti

08-13-2002, 05:10 PM	#5
KnightWhoSaysNi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 2,767	Grrrr!!! They didn't address my message! Oh well... To be fair, they do get a lot of emails during their show. I'll try the question again some other time.

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