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Old 05-24-2002, 02:59 AM   #1
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Question A Semi-Stupid Question...

While perusing the daily fundy roast in RRP, there was a bit of discussion concerning Lucifer (the Light Bringer or Morning Star). It got me to thinking (those who know me understand how rare and painful that is).

If I was a professor and tasked to grade Genesis as a student essay, I realized that without any context I'd be forced to give the student an "F" for plagiarizing without attribution the whole discussion over Lucifer and the fruit of the tree of knowledge. I would've assumed from the obvious parallels that the entire thing was copied from the Prometheus myth (rebellion against the gods, bringing knowledge/light to humanity, being punished for said transgression, etc.)

At the same time, I realized I didn't have the necessary context. So my question is:

Was the whole Lucifer/fruit thing plagiarized from a Prometheus-type myth or is this a common myth-cycle in primitive societies (i.e., spontaneously arising in many cultures)? Or is there some other explanation that I've missed?

If this has been done to death, apologies - maybe someone could link to a previous discussion. I don't mind reading...
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Old 05-24-2002, 07:03 AM   #2
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Hi Morpho

I imagine it’s a widespread bit of myth from the region, mixed into the Hebrew brew along with Noah / Deukalion one. OTOH, the Sumerian stuff is rather earlier than the Greek, so it could be the other way around: Prometheus and Deukalion are the Greek versions / codifications of earlier myths... as indeed would the Hebrew ones be.

Worth noting too that Prometheus was credited with not just bringing knowledge/light to humanity, but specifically fire. Stolen from the gods, IIRC.

Incidentally, Lucifer is the Latin name. Anyone know what the Hebrew name is?

Cheers, Oolon
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Old 05-24-2002, 08:25 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oolon Colluphid:
<strong>Incidentally, Lucifer is the Latin name. Anyone know what the Hebrew name is?

Cheers, Oolon</strong>
and El and Asherah begat Baal, Shahar and Shalim
and Shahar begat Helel (the Day Star) - Oy Vey
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Old 05-24-2002, 12:40 PM   #4
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If I was a professor and tasked to grade Genesis as a student essay, I realized that without any context I'd be forced to give the student an "F" for plagiarizing without attribution the whole discussion over Lucifer and the fruit of the tree of knowledge. I would've assumed from the obvious parallels that the entire thing was copied from the Prometheus myth (rebellion against the gods, bringing knowledge/light to humanity, being punished for said transgression, etc.)
Genesis contains no story of Lucifer, no story of any rebellion by angels, no story of God casting anyone down out of Heaven into Hell.
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Old 05-24-2002, 01:13 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShottleBop:
<strong>Genesis contains no story of Lucifer, no story of any rebellion by angels, no story of God casting anyone down out of Heaven into Hell.</strong>
Correct. Isaiah 14:12 speaks of Helel ben Shachar (aka Venus), a reference to the King of Babylon.
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Old 05-24-2002, 01:14 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oolon Colluphid:
<strong>Incidentally, Lucifer is the Latin name. Anyone know what the Hebrew name is?

</strong>
Oolon?
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Old 05-24-2002, 01:31 PM   #7
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Our Christian friends are the ones who claim Lucifer is the snake in Eden, to the Jews it was just what the Bible says it is, a talking snake. Most likey based on the Sumerian collection of creation myths, many of which are in The Epic of Gilgamesh, the worlds oldest known prose.
In the Sumerian version mankind loses the chance for eternal life by listening to the God of wisdom Ea/Enki and not to the great God Anu.
Ea tells Adam when he visits Anu in Heaven not to eat or drink anything or he will die, Adam goes to Heaven, Anu is impressed by Adams courage and offers him a drink of the water of life, to get eternal life, but Adam listens to the wiseass Ea and refuses it. TS, who wants to live forever anyway.
The battle of the angels stuff is in The Book of Enoch (which didn't make the final cut when they put the Bible together) and later in Revelations.
This story to is based on the Sumerian 'Epic of Zu', the great gods kid goes bad, steals the tablets of destinies and trys to take over as the big cheese, of course his plans go ary, 'curses foiled again'.


[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: marduck ]</p>
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Old 05-25-2002, 10:31 AM   #8
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Marduk: Many thanks.

Shuttlebop: I'll take your word for it. OTOH, the snake is often considered Satan, no? Or at least that's what all the fundies proclaiming the Fall is the cause of all the "de-evolution" of all life, starting with the snakes (the vestigial pelvic bones in boa's for instance are used as "proof" of the Genesis curse, etc). I wasn't talking anything about fallen angels, etc. My question was directed at the similarities between the snake tempting A&E to eat of the tree of "knowledge" or "life" then getting cursed for having the temerity to defy the gods AND other myth cycles (the promethean myth came to mind, but there were others, especially the Sumerian ones Marduk mentioned). Since I've clarified, perhaps you'd care to answer the question I actually asked. Thanks.
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Old 05-25-2002, 11:01 AM   #9
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Quote:
ReasonableDoubt
and El and Asherah begat Baal
Where does this come from?
Just curious.
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Old 05-25-2002, 12:42 PM   #10
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Originally posted by NOGO:
<strong>Where does this come from? Just curious.</strong>
Quote:
In his newest book, The Origins of Biblical Monotheism, Smith tries to address this question, but from a different angle in regards to monotheism and polytheism. Beginning with the Ugaritic texts, Smith asks what is monistic about polytheism and how the answer to this question might help make the emergence of Israelite monotheism more intelligible. Ugaritic polytheism is expressed as a monism through the concepts of the divine council or assembly and in the divine family. The two structures are essentially understood as a single entity with four levels: the chief god and his wife (El and Asherah); the seventy divine children (including Baal, Astarte, Anat, probably Resheph as well as the sun-goddess Shapshu and the moon-god Yerak) evidently characterized as the stars of El; the head helper of the divine household, Kothar wa-Hasis; and the servants of the divine household, who include what the Bible understands to be "angels" (in other words, messenger-gods).

[see <a href="http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/MSmith_BiblicalMonotheism.htm" target="_blank">The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts</a> - RD]
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