mark9950

Is a person saved by grace or are works also required? Paul and James seem to disagree on this.

James: (James 2:24 NRSV) You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Paul: (Gal 2:16 NRSV) yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ.

James: (James 2:17 NRSV) So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

Paul: (Titus 3:5 NRSV) he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, ...

James: (James 2:20 NRSV) Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren?

Paul: (Rom 3:28 NRSV) For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law.

James: (James 2:14 NRSV) What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you?

Paul: (Rom 4:5 NRSV) But to one who without works trusts him who justifies the ungodly, such faith is reckoned as righteousness.

keyser_soze

So nice to see even the followers are still debating points of interest.

YHWHtruth

Mark 1:5 says, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel."
So believing in Christ means believing in the good news that he spread.
Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" So baptism seems to be a necessary step for believing.
Luke 8:13, "And those on the rock are they who, when they have heard, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."
So, you have to keep believing.
John 3:36, "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."
So believing runs parallel to obeying the Son.
John 5:37-38, "And the Father that sent me, he hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he sent, him ye believe not."
Now we must believe in the Father.
John 10:25-27, "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father's name, these bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"
Jesus' followers will follow him.
1Peter 2:21, "For hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that ye should follow his steps."
To be a Christian, we must follow Christ's example. Where did Jesus place importance in his life.
Matt 4:23, " And Jesus went about in all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom"
Matt 10:7, "And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Matt 11:1, "And it came to pass when Jesus had finished commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and preach in their cities."
Mk 1:14, "Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God"
(See also Mk 1:38, 39; 3:14; 16:20; Lk 4:18; 43 etc etc etc.
Mt 20:28 states, "the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
The preaching work was of the upmost importance in Jesus' life. And he passed this commission on to us.
Mk 16:15, "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation."
Mt 28:19, 20, "Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."

True Christians would share in the preaching work. We are even told to imitate Paul in this regard (1Cor 4:16).
We are even told to evangelize, "I charge thee in the sight of God, and of Christ Jesus, who shall judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables. But be thou sober in all things, suffer hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil thy ministry." 2 Tim 4:1-5

This is starting to sound like works, does it not? "Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith." Jas 2:24

Yes, faith, accompanied by works is what eventually saves us. The Bible has always promoted works:
Matt 5:16. Even so let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.


Matt 11: 2. Now when John heard in the prison the works of the Christ, he sent by his disciples
Acts 5:38. And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will be overthrown:
Acts 9:36. Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.
Acts 13: 2. And as they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
Acts 26: 20. but declared both to them of Damascus first and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the country of Judaea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance.
Rom 2: 5. but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his works:
1 Cor 3: 9. For we are God's fellow-workers:
1 Corinthians 9:1. Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not ye my work in the Lord?
1 Cor 15: 58. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not vain in the Lord.
1Cor 16:10. Now if Timothy come, see that he be with you without fear; for he worketh the work of the Lord, as I also do:
2Cor 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound unto you; that ye, having always all sufficiency in everything, may abound unto every good work:
2Cor 12:12. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, by signs and wonders and mighty works.
Gal 2:16. yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 6:4. But let each man prove his own work, and then shall he have his glorying in regard of himself alone, and not of his neighbor.
Gal 6: 10. So then, as we have opportunity, let us work that which is good toward all men, and especially toward them that are of the household of the faith.
Eph 2: 10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
Eph 4:11. And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
Eph 5:11. and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even reprove them;
Phil 2: 12. So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Phil 2: 25. But I counted it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother and fellow-worker and fellow-soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need;
Col 1:10 to walk worthily of the Lord unto all pleasing, bearing fruit in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Col 3:23 whatsoever ye do, work heartily, as unto the Lord, and not unto men;
1Thess 1:3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, before our God and Father;
2 Thess 1: 11. To which end we also pray always for you, that our God may count you worthy of your calling, and fulfil every desire of goodness and every work of faith, with power; that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thess 2:16, 17 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
1 tim 2: 9. In like manner, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefastness and sobriety; not with braided hair, and gold or pearls or costly raiment;
but (which becometh women professing godliness) through good works.
1 Tim 5:25. In like manner also there are good works that are evident; and such as are otherwise cannot be hid.
1 Tim 6: 18. that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19. laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on the life which is life indeed.
2 Tim 3: 17. That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.
2 Tim 4:5. But be thou sober in all things, suffer hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil thy ministry.
Titus 2: 6,7 the younger men likewise exhort to be sober-minded: in all things showing thyself an ensample of good works; in thy doctrine showing uncorruptness, gravity,
Titus 2:13, 14 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works.
Titus 3:8. Faithful is the saying, and concerning these things I desire that thou affirm confidently, to the end that they who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men:
Titus 3: 14. And let our people also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.
Heb 10:24. and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works;
Jas 2: 14. What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?
Jas 2:17. Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
Jas 2:18. Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.
Jas 2: 20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?
Jas 2: 24. Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.
Jas 2:26 26. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.
3 John 1: 5. Beloved, thou doest a faithful work in whatsoever thou doest toward them that are brethren and strangers withal


Right now you are thinking about Ephesians chapter 2 where it seems to condemn works. But this should be taken in light of what else Paul wrote. Rom . 3:20 states, "No one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law." NIV
Yes, it was the works of the Mosaic Law that is downplayed in the Bible, not the works mentioned above. "For him [Paul] 'works' are 'works of the law' (Gal.3.3,5) and are opposed to faith." The Oxford Annotated Study Bible/RSV, p.1467

There is no disagreement between Paul and James!

Max

mark9950

A man who may not have existed at the time.

The OT never mentions him or him as a messiah and history does not even acknowledge him as a human man.

I know he may be a religious figure,but that does not make it true that he even existed.

Sure you may believe in him,but that does not change historical proof of existance or non-existance.

I could believe that the moon is made of cheese all that I want,but that will not change the fact that the moon is made of other materials whatever they are.

You can believe in this jesus all you,but unless historical proof can verify the existance than it was just a myth.

Besides jesus is well over 2000 years late and counting,heck it is 2003.Which he loses credibility of existance in my sight.

(Mat 24:34 NRSV) Truly I tell you, *this generation will not pass away* until all these things have taken place.

(Their generation did pass away, but the world didn't end)

midnight

got into a discussion with a fundie acquaintance over this and he said that one was not saved by works but faith. I surmised that if having faith in J.C. meant trying to emulate his life style then by default works would follow. So though he may not believe that one was saved by works one would not be saved without them because lacking works would indicate lacking faith. He avoided getting into religious discussions with me after that. I guess I gto him thinking critically. Dangerous when it comes to faith! I love playing word games with theists. Though I'm not sure if having faith = trying to emulate J.C. life necessarily. I was under the impression it did.

YHWHtruth

Mark wrote:

<<<<<(Mat 24:34 NRSV) Truly I tell you, *this generation will not pass away* until all these things have taken place.

(Their generation did pass away, but the world didn't end)>>>>

When four apostles seated with Jesus on the Mount of Olives heard his prophecy about “the conclusion of the system of things,” how would they understand the expression “this generation”? In the Gospels the word “generation” is translated from the Greek word ge·ne·a´, which current lexicons define in these terms: “Lit[erally] those descended fr[om] a common ancestor.” (Walter Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) “That which has been begotten, a family; ._._. successive members of a genealogy ._._. or of a race of people ._._. or of the whole multitude of men living at the same time, Matt. 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48; 21:32; Phil. 2:15, and especially of those of the Jewish race living at the same period.” (W._E._Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words) “That which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family; ._._. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Mt. xxiv. 34; Mk. xiii. 30; Lk. i._48 ._._. used esp[ecially] of the Jewish race living at one and the same period.”—J. H._Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.

Thus Vine and Thayer both cite Matthew 24:34 in defining “this generation” (he ge·ne·a´ hau´te) as “the whole multitude of men living at the same time.” The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (1964) gives support to this definition, stating: “The use of ‘generation’ by Jesus expresses his comprehensive purpose: he aims at the whole people and is conscious of their solidarity in sin.” Truly a “solidarity in sin” was apparent in the Jewish nation when Jesus was on earth, just as it marks the world system today.

Of course, Christians studying this matter guide their thinking primarily by how Jesus used the Greek expression he ge·ne·a´ hau´te, or “this generation.” He used it consistently in a negative way. Thus, he called the Jewish religious leaders “serpents, offspring of vipers” and went on to say that the judgment of Gehenna would be executed on “this generation.” (Matthew 23:33, 36) However, was this judgment limited to the hypocritical clergy? Not at all. On a number of occasions, Jesus’ disciples heard him speak of “this generation,” applying the term uniformly in a far wider sense. What was that?

In 31_C.E., during Jesus’ great Galilean ministry and shortly after the Passover, his disciples heard him say to “the crowds”: “With whom shall I compare this generation? It is like young children sitting in the marketplaces who cry out to their playmates, saying, ‘We played the flute for you, but you did not dance; we wailed, but you did not beat yourselves in grief.’ Correspondingly, John [the Baptizer] came neither eating nor drinking, yet people say, ‘He has a demon’; the Son of man [Jesus] did come eating and drinking, still people say, ‘Look! A man gluttonous and given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’” There was no pleasing those unprincipled “crowds”!—Matthew 11:7, 16-19.

Later in 31_C.E., as Jesus and his disciples set out on their second preaching tour of Galilee, “some of the scribes and Pharisees” asked Jesus for a sign. He told them and “the crowds” who were present: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet. For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. ._._. That is how it will be also with this wicked generation.” (Matthew 12:38-46) Obviously, “this wicked generation” included both the religious leaders and “the crowds” who never came to appreciate the sign that was fulfilled in Jesus’ death and resurrection.

After the Passover of 32_C.E., as Jesus and his disciples came into the Galilean region of Magadan, the Sadducees and the Pharisees again asked Jesus for a sign. He repeated to them: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” (Matthew 16:1-4) Those religious hypocrites were indeed most reprehensible as leaders among the unfaithful “crowds” whom Jesus condemned as “this wicked generation.”

Toward the end of his Galilean ministry, Jesus called the crowd and his disciples to him and said: “Whoever becomes ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man will also be ashamed of him.” (Mark 8:34,_38) So the masses of unrepentant Jews of that time obviously made up “this adulterous and sinful generation.” Some days later, after Jesus’ transfiguration, Jesus and his disciples “came toward the crowd,” and a man asked him to heal his son. Jesus commented: “O faithless and twisted generation, how long must I continue with you? How long must I put up with you?”—Matthew 17:14-17; Luke 9:37-41.

It was likely in Judea, after the Festival of Booths in 32_C.E., “when the crowds were massing together” around Jesus, that he repeated his condemnation of them, saying: “This generation is a wicked generation; it looks for a sign. But no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” (Luke 11:29) Finally, when the religious leaders brought Jesus to trial, Pilate offered to release him. The record says: “The chief priests and the older men persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas, but to have Jesus destroyed. ._._. Pilate said to them: ‘What, then, shall I do with Jesus the so-called Christ?’ They all said: ‘Let him be impaled!’ He said: ‘Why, what bad thing did he do?’ Still they kept crying out all the more: ‘Let him be impaled!’” That “wicked generation” was demanding Jesus’ blood!—Matthew 27:20-25.

A “faithless and twisted generation,” egged on by its religious leaders, thus played a key part in bringing about the death of the Lord Jesus Christ. Fifty days later, at Pentecost in 33_C.E., the disciples received holy spirit and started to speak in different tongues. Upon hearing the sound, “the multitude came together,” and the apostle Peter addressed them as “men of Judea and all you inhabitants of Jerusalem,” saying: “This man [Jesus] ._._. you fastened to a stake by the hand of lawless men and did away with.” How did some of those listeners react? “They were stabbed to the heart.” Peter then called on them to repent. He “bore thorough witness and kept exhorting them, saying: ‘Get saved from this crooked generation.’” In response, about three thousand “embraced his word heartily [and] were baptized.”—Acts 2:6,_14, 23, 37, 40,_41.

What, then, is the “generation” so frequently referred to by Jesus in the presence of his disciples? What did they understand by his words: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur”? Surely, Jesus was not departing from his established use of the term “this generation,” which he consistently applied to the contemporary masses with their “blind guides” who together made up the Jewish nation. (Matthew 15:14) “This generation” experienced all the distress foretold by Jesus and then passed away in an unequaled “great tribulation” on Jerusalem.—Matthew 24:21,_34.

mark9950

If what you say is true than that is a mistranslation.

Now what gives you the knowledge to translate the proper meaning for a man who supposidly existed 2000 years ago?

Did this jesus character come to you in a dream to tell you what he meant?

Their generation did pass away and nothing happened as we all know.

It is 2003 and where is this jesus?

The earth is still revolving around the sun,the sun is still burning and giving light,the stars did not fall to earth yet(which they cannot in the first place) and still nothing happend like he said.

If you answer do not twist and dance.

To an Unknown God

Hey all. First post for me- I've been lurking for a month or so and finally decided I have some sort of possibly useful comment.

The reason you're getting mixed around Mark is becuase as midnite said (he nailed it pretty much), faith and works don't really seperate.

Works are an EVIDENCE of faith. In saying faith without works is dead, you're saying it isn't really faith.

But you can have works without faith. The majority of "Fundies" fall into this category imo (to over-generalize). They are people who are afraid of the "real world". They are afraid of sex, or drugs, or whatever, and religion is a convenient excuse for not doing these things.

When you sit in a chair, you have faith it will hold you up. If someone asked you if you had faith the chair would hold you up, but you would not prove it by sitting down in it, one might question whether or not you have faith.

Love is another excellent parallel. People sometimes have messed up ways of showing love, but if you truly love someone or something, your actions will generally reflect it.

Do we reflect love (or faith) perfectly all the time? Hell, of course not we aren't perfect people. That is why "salvation" isn't works based, and that is where grace comes into play.

Whether you believe in that salvation or not is another issue, but the relationship between faith and works in and of itself (even when put in a non-theistic/biblical context) is relatively straightforward.

Sorry this was so longwinded.

mike_decock

You're confusing "faith" with "confidence" or "trust". Just look at the definition of Faith:

1. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
2. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.

Is it illogical to assume a chair would not hold you up when chairs have successfully held you up countless times in the past? Do you consider it trusting in "God's will" every time you sit in a chair?

I don't think so. Faith is a belief in something which has no proof or evidence. When you sit on a chair, you have confidence that it will support you like so many chairs have done in the past.

-Mike...

Magus55

The Messiah is mentioned in the Old testament - thats where the prophecies of the NT are stated.

Take a poll of historians and archaeologists - not many will argue that Jesus of Nazareth did in fact walk the Earth 2000 years ago. You may not believe in the ressurection, but its foolish to think Jesus never existed. There is more proof of His existence then there is of Columbus. And I don't know any mythical characters that have made the biggest impact on humanity in all history. You may think thats a lousy reason to believe He existed, but I don't see 2 billion people worshipping the tooth fairy every day, with some 4+ billion believing the tooth fairy existed/exists.

Jesus is not late. Whats this, the 4th time iv'e explained this to you? Jesus NEVER told us when He would return. You do not understand the meaning of Mat 24:34, so stop passing it off as though you do.


2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

He never told us when He was returning - it is a complete mystery to us - therefore how can He be late if we don't know what time He is to return?