Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Noesis · 07-22-2003, 09:40 PM

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I have given up the search for a specific refutation because the issue is now moribund. After another 20 minutes of heated debate, he finally conceded that he is a fideist, but that there are some rational, though not objective, reasons for believing. His almost exact words were "It's objective truth without objective reasons," so I can only make sense of that statement by thinking that he views Christian tenets as axioms.

Santas little helper · 07-22-2003, 11:02 PM

Quote:

I have given up the search for a specific refutation because...

I'm still not clear what kind of refutation you
were looking for.Could you ever hope to refute
a completely absurd "argument" like

Quote:

Monks reach abnormal brain states while meditating.
Ergo, supernaturalism is true.

Try refuting this:
I like fried chicken therefore God exists

js_africanus · 07-23-2003, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Farren
Another thing he may be thinking of (although its not a physical difference of any particular kind of person), is that there's an area of the right frontal parietal lobe of the brain that produces euphoria and a sense of "presence" of another individual when electrically stimulated, which is invariably interpreted as "God" by people with religious beliefs.

IIRC, it's the angular gyrus. Google for the phrases "angular gyrus" and "out of body" and you'll get plenty of good hits.

HumanisTim · 07-23-2003, 10:34 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mageth
[B]A Christian friend of mine recently attempted to prove the existence of a supernatural realm by stating that monks achieve abnormal brain states while meditating.

I think your best argument against this. Is that these findings give natural explanations for things which were once though to be supernatural. And helps to elminate supernatural ideas.

Mageth · 07-23-2003, 12:30 PM

HumanisTim:

Just to be clear, that quote was from Noesis, not me.

miscreant · 07-23-2003, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noesis
A Christian friend of mine recently attempted to prove the existence of a supernatural realm by stating that monks achieve abnormal brain states while meditating.

I remember this study, though I don't have a link for it. If I remember correctly, the abnormal brain states your friend is refering to are states in which portions of the monks brains SHUT DOWN. Specifically, the portions that are linked to self awareness and identity. Thus the feeling the monks get of being 'one with everything'.

I don't see how it helps your friends argument though. If they were abnormal states utilizing portions of the brain that were otherwise not used, then you might be able to link it to a 'higher' form of conciousness or something, but in actuality, it's using LESS of your brain. I fail to see how that helps prove the supernatural.

Miscreant

john_v_h · 07-23-2003, 02:08 PM

Here is the monk-brain story for the curious.

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07-22-2003, 09:40 PM	#21
Noesis Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Florida Posts: 30	Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I have given up the search for a specific refutation because the issue is now moribund. After another 20 minutes of heated debate, he finally conceded that he is a fideist, but that there are some rational, though not objective, reasons for believing. His almost exact words were "It's objective truth without objective reasons," so I can only make sense of that statement by thinking that he views Christian tenets as axioms.

07-23-2003, 10:34 AM	#24
HumanisTim Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Reading,PA Posts: 233	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mageth [B]A Christian friend of mine recently attempted to prove the existence of a supernatural realm by stating that monks achieve abnormal brain states while meditating. I think your best argument against this. Is that these findings give natural explanations for things which were once though to be supernatural. And helps to elminate supernatural ideas.

07-23-2003, 12:30 PM	#25
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	HumanisTim: Just to be clear, that quote was from Noesis, not me.

07-23-2003, 02:08 PM	#27
john_v_h Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Francisco, California Posts: 1,760	Here is the monk-brain story for the curious.

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