Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Infinity Lover · 01-11-2002, 01:12 PM

Nothing doesn't exist, it's impossible to prove the nonexistence of God, so you may as well call that a nonexistent argument!
But there's no way to prove the existense of God either.
The only thing we could ever honestly agree on, is that God MAYBE exists.

EVERYTHING that doesn't exist for sure MAYBE exists!!

And that just doesn't cut it as existing.

God may remove doubt, but turning doubt into certainty is something different!

God is doubt!

So now you know for sure!

phlebas · 01-11-2002, 01:20 PM

Welcome to the board

Whether God "maybe" exists depends on how you define "God."

The standard definition of the Christian God is, to my mind, logically impossible, so I disagree that he "maybe" exists.

You could probably come up with a definition of some god or other that I don't find logically impossible, so I may concede that he "maybe" exists.

Keep in mind that condecing that something might exist is not the same as believing it does.

Until you get more specific about your God concept, don't expect a lot of agreement with your "maybe," from either side.

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: phlebas ]

Mageth · 01-11-2002, 01:22 PM

I think I see what you're getting at, but your statements:

Nothing doesn't exist

and

EVERYTHING that doesn't exist for sure MAYBE exists!!

are illogical, IMO. As to the first statement, there is not an elephant in my office. I could say that there exists NO elephant in my office. It DOESN'T EXIST. Therefore, there is at least one thing that doesn't exist.

As to the second statement, if something doesn't exist for sure, then it doesn't MAYBE exist.

Infinity Lover · 01-11-2002, 01:35 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by phlebas:
[QB]Welcome to the board

Whether God "maybe" exists depends on how you define "God."

No it doesn,t!

Are you sure you read the whole message or just one line before you started typing?

EVERYTHING that doesn't exist for sure MAYBE exists, because it's IMPOSSIBLE to prove the nonexistence of ANYTHING!

And if there was a God that could exist within logical bounds, that God would have to be void of bul(beep!).
You don't get any wiser fooling yourself, and logic is honest, because lies make no sense!

It sounds a lot like you could bul(beep) something into existense? You sure can't make an argument that way.

Infinity Lover · 01-11-2002, 01:51 PM

I could say that there exists NO elephant in my office. It DOESN'T EXIST. Therefore, there is at least one thing that doesn't exist.

As to the second statement, if something doesn't exist for sure, then it doesn't MAYBE exist.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Close but no sigar. Everything that doesn't exist for sure could exist. You know for sure elephants exist, don't you? You're also sure the room lacking the elephants exists? Do you know for sure God exists? THere's no way to be certain is there? But it's impossible to prove the nonexistense of anything.

Seeying there's no elephant in my room, is something entirely different then proving they don't exist.

isn't it?

Mageth · 01-11-2002, 02:14 PM

My elephant story was in reference to your statement "nothing doesn't exist." Taken at its simplest, the no-elephant-in-my-office seems a valid counter to that. I don't care if elephants exist somewhere else; relative to my office, there exists no elephant in my office.

I could say "There exists no purple rhinoceros with twice the mass of the moon, yet with no gravity field, orbiting the earth at 2X the orbit of the moon." I can say confidently that purple rhinoceroses with twice the mass of the moon and no gravity field do not exist. Nothing we have learned about our universe (or any reasonable other universe we might postulate) would allow for such a thing, and to all indications nothing ever will. I can say FOR SURE that there is no such rhinoceros orbiting the earth at 2X the orbit of the moon - unless it's INVISIBLE and UNDETECTABLE as well (in which case, it doesn't exist in this universe, so, relative to me, under any useful definition of "exist" (I consider "existence relative to me" as bound to our universe), it doesn't exist).

You might say "it might exist OUTSIDE our universe." But, IMO, you fall into the same trap. In OUR universe it doesn't exist, we can't detect it, we can't even imagine a reasonable universe in which such a thing would exist, and therefore I say it doesn't exist.

God pretty much falls in the same category as that rhinoceros. Unless (a particularly defined) god comes down here and shows himself to me, such a (particularly defined) god doesn't exist. It's a useless mental exercise to posit that such a god maybe exists, IMO.

theophilus · 01-11-2002, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Close but no sigar. Everything that doesn't exist for sure could exist. You know for sure elephants exist, don't you? You're also sure the room lacking the elephants exists? Do you know for sure God exists? THere's no way to be certain is there? But it's impossible to prove the nonexistense of anything.

Seeying there's no elephant in my room, is something entirely different then proving they don't exist.

isn't it?[/QB]

Just an observation.
Saying that "no elephant exists in my room" requires that elephants exist and that I know what they are.
It would be meaningless to say, "there is no ?? in my room," where ?? is not known to exist and is unknowable.
In denying God, atheists are asserting a knowledge which they cannot possibly possess.
They also say things like "the Christian God is illogical." Of course, they have no idea whether their logic is adequate to establish the existence of God or anything else - is "existence" itself logical?

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: theophilus ]

tribalbeeyatch · 01-11-2002, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theophilus:

Just an observation.
Saying that "no elephant exists in my room" requires that elephants exist and that I know what they are.

No, it only requires an adequate definition of "elephant". They don't have to actually exist.

Quote:

In denying God, atheists are asserting a knowledge which they cannot possibly possess.

Ummm? I'm an atheist, and I don't "deny" gods. I just don't believe in them.

Quote:

They also say things like "the Christian God is illogical." Of course, they have no idea whether their logic is adequate to establish the existence of God or anything else - is "existence" itself logical?

An even better question: Is the answer to your question so painfully obvious that it doesn't require a response?

theophilus · 01-11-2002, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:
My elephant story was in reference to your statement "nothing doesn't exist." Taken at its simplest, the no-elephant-in-my-office seems a valid counter to that. I don't care if elephants exist somewhere else; relative to my office, there exists no elephant in my office.

I could say "There exists no purple rhinoceros with twice the mass of the moon, yet with no gravity field, orbiting the earth at 2X the orbit of the moon." I can say confidently that purple rhinoceroses with twice the mass of the moon and no gravity field do not exist.

Actually, you can say no such thing. You can only say that nothing exists if you define it so that it "cannot" exist. It is entirely possible that such an entity exists but does not conform to known physical principles. So, all you can say is "no such entity exists which follows the physical laws {u}as we understand them [/u] allowing for the possibility that your "understanding" is flawed, ala Newton v Einstein.

Nothing we have learned about our universe (or any reasonable other universe we might postulate) would allow for such a thing, and to all indications nothing ever will.

This is fascinating (and you accuse Christians of being illogical). "As far as we know, we know what we know and don't think that it could be different." Science is littered with discarded theories.

I can say FOR SURE that there is no such rhinoceros orbiting the earth at 2X the orbit of the moon - unless it's INVISIBLE and UNDETECTABLE as well (in which case, it doesn't exist in this universe, so, relative to me, under any useful definition of "exist" (I consider "existence relative to me" as bound to our universe), it doesn't exist).

Again, you have merely defined something as not existing. That is different from proving that it doesn't exist.

You might say "it might exist OUTSIDE our universe." But, IMO, you fall into the same trap. In OUR universe it doesn't exist, we can't detect it, we can't even imagine a reasonable universe in which such a thing would exist, and therefore I say it doesn't exist.

Thank you! That is exactly the point of God's existence. He does not exist because we can "imaging" him or "detect" him. He exists because he exists. We can only know that he exists because he reveals himself. He is not subject to any tests which his creatures might think up.

God pretty much falls in the same category as that rhinoceros.

That you could even make such a statement shows a profoundly limited view of existence.

Unless (a particularly defined) god comes down here and shows himself to me, such a (particularly defined) god doesn't exist. It's a useless mental exercise to posit that such a god maybe exists, IMO.

Mageth · 01-11-2002, 04:56 PM

I don't see how me making up some mythical, nonexistent rhinoceros is any different than someone else making up some mythical, nonexistent god.

I could say "There exists a purple rhinoceros with twice the mass of the moon, yet with no gravity field, orbiting the earth at 2X the orbit of the moon, and it exists because it exists." What the hell am I saying? Nothing at all. It doesn't exist. Saying so doesn't make it so. Show yourself to me, god, then I'll admit you exist. Until you do, you don't exist.

You're under the same burden of proof to prove the existence of god as I am to prove the existence of the imaginary rhinoceros. Do you really believe such a rhinoceros might exist? Do you really want to say that such a rhinoceros is equally as likely as god? (Well, I personally would answer the last question in the affirmative.)

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]

01-11-2002, 01:12 PM	#1
Infinity Lover Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,047	Maybe isn't be! Nothing doesn't exist, it's impossible to prove the nonexistence of God, so you may as well call that a nonexistent argument! But there's no way to prove the existense of God either. The only thing we could ever honestly agree on, is that God MAYBE exists. EVERYTHING that doesn't exist for sure MAYBE exists!! And that just doesn't cut it as existing. God may remove doubt, but turning doubt into certainty is something different! God is doubt! So now you know for sure!

01-11-2002, 01:20 PM	#2
phlebas Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Metropolis Posts: 916	Welcome to the board Whether God "maybe" exists depends on how you define "God." The standard definition of the Christian God is, to my mind, logically impossible, so I disagree that he "maybe" exists. You could probably come up with a definition of some god or other that I don't find logically impossible, so I may concede that he "maybe" exists. Keep in mind that condecing that something might exist is not the same as believing it does. Until you get more specific about your God concept, don't expect a lot of agreement with your "maybe," from either side. [ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: phlebas ]</p>

01-11-2002, 04:56 PM	#10
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I don't see how me making up some mythical, nonexistent rhinoceros is any different than someone else making up some mythical, nonexistent god. I could say "There exists a purple rhinoceros with twice the mass of the moon, yet with no gravity field, orbiting the earth at 2X the orbit of the moon, and it exists because it exists." What the hell am I saying? Nothing at all. It doesn't exist. Saying so doesn't make it so. Show yourself to me, god, then I'll admit you exist. Until you do, you don't exist. You're under the same burden of proof to prove the existence of god as I am to prove the existence of the imaginary rhinoceros. Do you really believe such a rhinoceros might exist? Do you really want to say that such a rhinoceros is equally as likely as god? (Well, I personally would answer the last question in the affirmative.) [ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

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01-11-2002, 01:22 PM	#3
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I think I see what you're getting at, but your statements: Nothing doesn't exist and EVERYTHING that doesn't exist for sure MAYBE exists!! are illogical, IMO. As to the first statement, there is not an elephant in my office. I could say that there exists NO elephant in my office. It DOESN'T EXIST. Therefore, there is at least one thing that doesn't exist. As to the second statement, if something doesn't exist for sure, then it doesn't MAYBE exist.

01-11-2002, 01:35 PM	#4
Infinity Lover Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,047	[QUOTE]Originally posted by phlebas: [QB]Welcome to the board Whether God "maybe" exists depends on how you define "God." No it doesn,t! Are you sure you read the whole message or just one line before you started typing? EVERYTHING that doesn't exist for sure MAYBE exists, because it's IMPOSSIBLE to prove the nonexistence of ANYTHING! And if there was a God that could exist within logical bounds, that God would have to be void of bul(beep!). You don't get any wiser fooling yourself, and logic is honest, because lies make no sense! It sounds a lot like you could bul(beep) something into existense? You sure can't make an argument that way.

01-11-2002, 01:51 PM	#5
Infinity Lover Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,047	I could say that there exists NO elephant in my office. It DOESN'T EXIST. Therefore, there is at least one thing that doesn't exist. As to the second statement, if something doesn't exist for sure, then it doesn't MAYBE exist.[/QB][/QUOTE] Close but no sigar. Everything that doesn't exist for sure could exist. You know for sure elephants exist, don't you? You're also sure the room lacking the elephants exists? Do you know for sure God exists? THere's no way to be certain is there? But it's impossible to prove the nonexistense of anything. Seeying there's no elephant in my room, is something entirely different then proving they don't exist. isn't it?

01-11-2002, 02:14 PM	#6
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	My elephant story was in reference to your statement "nothing doesn't exist." Taken at its simplest, the no-elephant-in-my-office seems a valid counter to that. I don't care if elephants exist somewhere else; relative to my office, there exists no elephant in my office. I could say "There exists no purple rhinoceros with twice the mass of the moon, yet with no gravity field, orbiting the earth at 2X the orbit of the moon." I can say confidently that purple rhinoceroses with twice the mass of the moon and no gravity field do not exist. Nothing we have learned about our universe (or any reasonable other universe we might postulate) would allow for such a thing, and to all indications nothing ever will. I can say FOR SURE that there is no such rhinoceros orbiting the earth at 2X the orbit of the moon - unless it's INVISIBLE and UNDETECTABLE as well (in which case, it doesn't exist in this universe, so, relative to me, under any useful definition of "exist" (I consider "existence relative to me" as bound to our universe), it doesn't exist). You might say "it might exist OUTSIDE our universe." But, IMO, you fall into the same trap. In OUR universe it doesn't exist, we can't detect it, we can't even imagine a reasonable universe in which such a thing would exist, and therefore I say it doesn't exist. God pretty much falls in the same category as that rhinoceros. Unless (a particularly defined) god comes down here and shows himself to me, such a (particularly defined) god doesn't exist. It's a useless mental exercise to posit that such a god maybe exists, IMO.

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