vixstile

Hello,this is my first post on this site,which i was hesetant to make because im probably not in the same league intellectually as many of you are. But,what the hell, ill give it a try anyway. This post is going to be about my take on morality as an atheist.

Most theist believe that their god has created a morality,a physical/universal law that encompassed all lives, and that if this law is adhered to, positive consequences will ensue, and if this law is not adhered to, negative consequences ensue. I reject this concept of course .

So what is morality and being moral to me? Morality is a definition, and one that has noting to do with right and wrong. A moral belief is -any belief that one mite hold to be beneficial to ones self and to others-, and acting moral is -acting in a manor in which one believes to be beneficial to ones self and others-.

A couple of examples of morality mite be, donating to charity,buying a bum something to eat, or supporting education. Another perfectly valid example of morality is; drowning your children in a bath tub because you believe it will save their soles from eternal damnation. Just as, condemning homosexuality is as equally moral as condemning those who condemn homosexuality.

Of course the belief that supporting education will benefit others follows some logic, whereas drowning your children is pure irrational insanity. This shows that a moral belief can in fact be beneficial to ones self and others, but not simply because it is moral. Something being moral does not determine whether it is good or bad , right or wrong, only that you believe it is.


ps... please do not belittle my writing skills, i know they are pour and hope to improve them by posting on sites such as this one.

BLoggins02

Good post. Don't worry about your writing skills. As you said, they will improve with time (and some of us still need to improve a lot ). Do keep the habit of formatting your posts with paragraphs. This really does help tremendously.

As for your post, I think you've shown quite clearly what you believe morals are derived from, but what of ethics? Are they the same things in your book? Some people say "ethics" is just a secularized word for "morals", others disagree. What's your view on this?

Personally, I think that theists ignore important facets of reality when they argue that morals/ethics could not come ex nihilo. Most importantly, I believe theists ignore or downplay the role of cultural evolution and meme theory in positing the cause of ethics. My theory is that once human beings acquired the ability to communicate rationally, they were able to pass down from generation to generation those ethics and morals which they learned from personal experience.

Example: a hypothetical first communicative human kills a member of another tribe. In retaliation, the tribe kills his mate. He of course is greatly saddened and hurt by this and also reasons that killing another human being would cause sadness and pain in other humans. Therefore, he may teach his offspring, "do not kill or bad things will happen to you." Once spoken this easily becomes a meme and can spread through a community or an entire race, the source becoming quickly forgotten.

Also, the reason we see so many common ethic systems today may be the same reason that similar traits evolved separately in different species: there were survival reasons for having these ethics.

Just my $.02, probably not very lucid either, I'm tired.

[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: BLoggins02 ]</p>

vixstile

Ethics and morality's origins and applications may differ slightly, but they are pretty much the same thing.When describing my own beliefs and behavior i try to avoid the term morality because most people, and even many atheists, insist on there being a universal standard of morality .As far as i am concerned, something can be neither morally right nor wrong.

Sojourner553

Good post by the way. There is no reason to ever
apologize on spelling and grammer when your reasoning is sound. (Try using Word and check for spelling -- that helps me.)

BTW: I do not necessarily agree that one cannot determine if anything is morally right or wrong.
One can WITHIN a given philosophical system.

There are really three types of philosophical/religious systems: those based on humanism, fundamentalism, or hedonism.

Humanist philosophies are predicated on being good to others/not harming other humans. Humanists are comprised of both religious AND non-religious individuals who believe that treating EVERY human as well as possible, supercedes all other doctrines.

Fundamentalism philosophies are based on obeying an authority who claims sole possession of true knowledge and the ability to solve ultimate problems of the universe. It is more important to spread the "true doctrine" than to respect individual rights; treat everyone well.

Hedonism believes in just doing good for oneself.
Both religious and atheists can be hedonists. You see Christians who rail that their fallen comrades are not religious-- therefore they must be atheists. Wrong, they are hedonists, caring only for themselves. They are usually religious too -- to make sure they get the rewards of heaven by asking forgiveness before they die.

If one accepts the basic principle of humanism as being the best philosophical system --(then and only then) can morality be deduced from logical principles.

Based on a philosophy of humanism (theist or nontheistic) I can provide broad guidelines on what is morally right or wrong --


Again, the existance of Fundamentalist Christians, Jews, Muslims, AND atheists (example Madelyn O'Hara and Ayn Rand) who insist they hold ultimate truths of the universe -- shows that not everyone agrees a system of philosophy based on humanism is the "correct" one.

That is what is meant by there is no one absolute system of morality.

Most religions have strains of humanism for daily living; fundamentalism for obeying authorities.

Sojourner

JL

Are you saying then that there is an underlying measure of right and wrong?

Hey I'm a fairly intelligent guy, but there are many here who put me to shame. You've already got one up on a lot of people by being honest with yourself. You can always increase your knowledge base, but self-righteous obnoxious pricks usually never change.

vixstile

JL-"Are you saying then that there is an underlying measure of right and wrong?"


No.Someone may perceive an action as being right or wrong, but an action within itself can be neither intrinsicly right or wrong.The rightness or wrongness of an action exists in your mind not in the action.

JL

I agree. I misunderstood you.

shamon

What is “this”? Is it the general idea of immutable morality for humans or theism creating immutable morality?

Morality is just that, acting in a way that benefits society and yourself and doesn’t harm others. Simple rules for human behavior.

Homosexuality is a condemnation of sorts. It didn’t exist before civilization and doesn’t among present-day hunter-gatherers. Judging homosexuals for something they can’t help is another thing altogether and usually where humans make mistakes. Too much blame.

EVERYONE supports education. Drowning your children doesn’t benefit others, it harms them. It is therefore immoral. Morality is not belief but the opposite – immutable laws of behavior, for HUMANS. They’re may not be objective, meaning they apply to species other than human, but they are certainly objective to humans.

What are YOUR moral dilemmas and I will try and prove that there is only ONE right answer. Our morality is innate, otherwise we wouldn’t be here. Nothing magical, just common rules of behavior that apply to humans. They’re common to ALL humans and immutable.

[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: shamon ]

[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: shamon ]</p>

free12thinker

Morality is a way of thinking and to deem something immoral or moral has to come with reasoning and logic. That much is obvious to free thinker who refuse to deem something immoral simply because a deity said it was.

That said, I believe the human condition in itself dictates morality. In this, I mean that universal morals have always been the same (murder is immoral) (love is moral) based on how the actions affect the human condition. Do they make us feel good, or do they negatively impact us. Anrea Yates negatively impacted her five kids. This should be obvious to anyone. And though she may've seen some good in the actions, the bad was universal.

We can't control the reasoning of others. We can simply look to protect those who need protection. And that includes everyone, regardless of age, color, race, yada yada yada. Universal morality protects them. I keep using Universal because there are acts and practices which are deemed immoral to some and moral to others, and are therefore NOT universal.

But a simple reason and logic approach can render a simple answer. If you are doing something that negatively impacts someone else, beliefs aside, than it is immoral. It affects societies ability to function in peace. But homosexuality, casual sex, prostitution, gambling, marijuanna; they do not.

[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: free12thinker ]</p>

vixstile

i dont know what you are referring to by "this"

I think you missed the point i was trying to make here "moral belief can in fact be beneficial to ones self and others, but not simply because it is moral. Something being moral does not determine whether it is good or bad , right or wrong, only that you believe it is."

I dont understand your point

NO not everyone supports education. Of course drowning children doesn't benefit others, but if is done under the belief that it will benefit them,it is a moral belief

And i am simply going to have to dissagree with you that there is anything moraly objective

My morality comes from within,from my emotions and beliefs, which are entirely different from your emotion and beliefs and from everyone else's emotions and beliefs. What makes you feel bad doesn't make me feel bad, and what makes you feel good doesn't make me feel good.

If preserving the health and happiness of animals is your goal and makes you feel good,then the best solution for you is to be a vegetarian. I am not concerned with the health and happiness of animals, so vegetarianism is not the best solution for me.