Butters

God works in mysterious ways, I ran across this
<a href="http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/madframe.htm" target="_blank">James Madison</a>
while searching for something totally unrelated. I thought it might be of some intrest to someone here. Don't neglect to check out this
<a href="http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/founding.htm#MYTHING" target="_blank">David Barton's</a>

Just Another Infidel

The positive atheism site looks to be an excellence resource and a fun read. Thanks.

Radorth

I'd love to see the whole context of this one. It has 2 sets of elipses, which I would never use without the context.

"The civil government...functions with complete success...by the total separation of the Church from the State" (Madison, 1819, Writings, 8:432).

Anybody?

Rad

GH

"The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State." (Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819).

Found it <a href="http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/qmadison.htm" target="_blank">here</a>.

The bold is mine, to show the quoted text from the original wording.

The quoted text seems to imply that the government works successfully because the church and state are seperate. The original text doesn't imply seperation causes the success of government, but does imply that both church and state are better off without each other.

Toto

The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State.
(James Madison, Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819)

This quote of Madison's is usually part of the evidence that separation of church and state is good for the state and good for the church.

The elipses remove part of the meaning, but the original quote is still valid. Madison was a champion of separation of church and state, and opposed the funding of chaplains.

<a href="http://www.au.org/churchstate/cs3014.htm" target="_blank">More quotes from Madison</a>

Buffman

As a purist, I still criticize quotes that are pieced together whether the message appears to remain the same or not. There is only one "accurate" quote. The complete one! Here are many of the same URLs that have already been provided. Hopefully with a little additional information to help find their original sources.

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g t;&gt;

Madison, James. 1900-1910. The Writings of James Madison. Edited by Gaillard Hunt. 9 volumes. New York: G. P. Putnam's Sons.

(Hunt) 1862–1924, American historian and editor, b. New Orleans. He served (1887–1909, 1917–24) the Dept. of State in various capacities, his most important work being done as chief of the division of publications and as editor. From 1909 to 1917 he was chief of the division of manuscripts in the Library of Congress. Among his books are The Life of James Madison (1902) and The Department of State of the United States: Its History and Functions (1914). He edited The Writings of James Madison (9 vol., 1900–1910) and Vol. XVI to XXVII of the Journals of the Continental Congress (1909–28).

Rad: It appears that the references you are finding directs the researcher to go to Vol 8, pg 432 to find the original source of the quote. However, I agree with you. I do not like to see patched together quotes like this one. However, these following references help to confirm Madison's position on this issue. There are many others.

<a href="http://exchristian.net/xtains/madison.html" target="_blank">http://exchristian.net/xtains/madison.html</a>

(Extract)
"The Civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state."
[James Madison in a letter to Robert Walsh, March 2, 1819]
(End extract)

<a href="http://www.au.org/churchstate/cs3014.htm" target="_blank">http://www.au.org/churchstate/cs3014.htm</a>

"There is not a shadow of right in the general government to intermeddle with religion. Its least interference with it, would be a most flagrant usurpation. I can appeal to my uniform conduct on this subject, that I have warmly supported religious freedom."
–Journal excerpt, June 12, 1788

"Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom? In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U.S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does not this involve the principle of a national establishment, applicable to a provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation."
-"Detached Memoranda"
(End extracts)

<a href="http://atheism.about.com/library/quotes/bl_q_JMadison.htm" target="_blank">http://atheism.about.com/library/quotes/bl_q_JMadison.htm</a>

(Extract)
Nothwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, & the full establishment of it, in some parts of our Country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Gov' & Religion neither can be duly supported: Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst.. And in a Gov' of opinion, like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject. Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Gov will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together; [James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, The Writings of James Madison, Gaillard Hunt]
(End extract)